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Old 12-14-2007, 04:25 PM   #11
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Actually Banana Brain is correct. There is a minimum level of calorie excess you need you need to create a LB of muscle. You must also give your body the nutrients it needs to create that muscle but that is beside the point you need energy (calories) as well as building materials (nutrients) to create anything.

On the flip side to this, if you diet improperly, by severe calorie restrictions below your RMR (resting metabolic rate) and your body flips into starvation mode, it will harvest the calories from muscle instead of fat. So there is also a harvestable calories per lb of muscle, just as 3500 calories is harvestable per LB of fat.

Unfortunately I don't know what it is. That’s why I came here. I am searching for that number. I want to calculate how much muscle I am losing if I restrict my diet too much. Calories per lb of muscle is not the only number I need, however I do need it to make the calculation, and I do know it is has been calculated before even if only from finding the amount of calories in human muscle by heating one gram of water one degree Celsius at 15°C (definition of a calorie). Unfortunately no one in the “health” community seems interested in explaining how or where they got their information, so there is no way to believe or disbelieve them only to guess at who is correct. Is being healthy science or a faith? If you say it is faith then I say that is why so many diets fail. It takes faith in science to lose weight and stay fit and healthy. (Or a very lucky guess)
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:41 PM   #12
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Good grief, I have no idea what is going on here.

Frankly I am confused as to what the poster wants to know.

And I cannot fathom the post by tojomo.

Sorry guys, you're not asking cogent questions.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntdot View Post
Good grief, I have no idea what is going on here.

Frankly I am confused as to what the poster wants to know.

And I cannot fathom the post by tojomo.

Sorry guys, you're not asking cogent questions.
Thanks auntdot, this thread made my head hurt like a crockpot thread a few weeks ago.
Not that I'm dumb, there's just too much thought involved about food sometimes!
EAT! DON"T SIT! (alot)
There, problem solved.
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Old 12-14-2007, 11:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tojomo View Post
Actually Banana Brain is correct. There is a minimum level of calorie excess you need you need to create a LB of muscle. You must also give your body the nutrients it needs to create that muscle but that is beside the point you need energy (calories) as well as building materials (nutrients) to create anything.
Not true as you stated it! Yes, you must have more calories than your BMR PLUS the calories you expend exercising ... this is where the building blocks come from to build new muscle. But there is no one magic number. How much you stress your muscles is a factor - and how you stress them ... you can do light weight/high reps and build strength without building muscle mass - even on the same diet and expending the same number of calories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tojomo View Post
On the flip side to this, if you diet improperly, by severe calorie restrictions below your RMR (resting metabolic rate) and your body flips into starvation mode, it will harvest the calories from muscle instead of fat. So there is also a harvestable calories per lb of muscle, just as 3500 calories is harvestable per LB of fat.

Unfortunately I don't know what it is. That’s why I came here. I am searching for that number.
If you take your BMR + daily activity level factor to get your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) and reduce your caloric intake by about 14%-18% .... for every pound you lose (3,500 calories burned above that level) about 75%-80% will be fat and 20%-25% will be muscle - by weight. But, then you have to look at the volumetrics and density ... the density of fat is about 0.9g/cm³ amd muscle is about 1.1g/cm³ - so muscle is about 22% more dense than fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tojomo View Post
I want to calculate how much muscle I am losing if I restrict my diet too much.
Again - the answer is theoretical without testing - and a little more complex because it's not a linear inverse proportional relationship. I have seen nomograms in my physiology books ... but I don't have them anymore.

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Originally Posted by tojomo View Post
Calories per lb of muscle is not the only number I need, however I do need it to make the calculation, and I do know it is has been calculated before even if only from finding the amount of calories in human muscle by heating one gram of water one degree Celsius at 15°C (definition of a calorie). Unfortunately no one in the “health” community seems interested in explaining how or where they got their information, so there is no way to believe or disbelieve them only to guess at who is correct. Is being healthy science or a faith? If you say it is faith then I say that is why so many diets fail. It takes faith in science to lose weight and stay fit and healthy. (Or a very lucky guess)
LOL ... the "health community" gets their information about diet and nutrition from physiologists, exercise physiologists, sports medicine, and nutritionists. If every GP knew everything about medicine there wouldn't be a need for Diagnosticians (Internests) or sub specialties like Cardiologists, Pulmonologists, Endocrinologists, and the various sub-specialties of surgeons, etc.

Since you are referencing BB (who is trying to bulk up) and I get the general impression from your post that you're trying to shed a few pounds of fat with a minimal loss of lean muscle mass (not the same thing) .... you might try reading these sites:

How To Gain Lean Bodyweight - it also explains the weight gain/weight loss in the bodybuilding cycle.

The BMI/BMR calculator ... includes sensible weight gain/loss information

Hope this helps you find your magic numbers.
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:23 AM   #15
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I too am interested in how many cals you need to eat extra to gain a pound of muscle, or, how to calculate it. As said the amount extra for a pound of fat gain is ref'd as 3500, but muscle should be alot less.

Also, I don't see how you can build strength without also building muscle.
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Old 03-31-2008, 08:15 AM   #16
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Wouldn't it be nice if you could eat something and add muscle by doing that.

Sadly, it's not that easy. You have to exercise to add muscle. If you demand more of muscles on a regular basis, they will get bigger to satisfy that demand.

You have to eat 3500 calories more than your body uses to gain a pound. To lose a pound, you have to burn 3,500 more calories than you eat. Whether it's fat or muscle is dependent on whether you sit on the couch and watch TV or exercise.

It's your choice.
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Old 03-31-2008, 11:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Andy M. View Post
Wouldn't it be nice if you could eat something and add muscle by doing that.

Sadly, it's not that easy. You have to exercise to add muscle. If you demand more of muscles on a regular basis, they will get bigger to satisfy that demand.

You have to eat 3500 calories more than your body uses to gain a pound. To lose a pound, you have to burn 3,500 more calories than you eat. Whether it's fat or muscle is dependent on whether you sit on the couch and watch TV or exercise.

It's your choice.
Exercise goes without saying.
I'm just wondering about the cals required to gain 1 pound of muscle. It should be less than a pound of fat if you think about it.
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Old 03-31-2008, 11:49 AM   #18
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I'm not sure that's something that's easily measureable. To gain a pound of muscle you must do some extensive exercising. How many calories you have to expend to do the amount of exercise needed to add a pound of muscle may vary for several reasons.

If a person is a couch potato who does not exercise at all, he may be able to add a pound of muscle with a lower number of calories spent on exercise vs. a highly developed, body builder who already has lots of highly developed musculature.

Why do you think it would be less than the number of calories to add a pound of fat?
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Old 03-31-2008, 12:33 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Andy M. View Post
I'm not sure that's something that's easily measureable. To gain a pound of muscle you must do some extensive exercising. How many calories you have to expend to do the amount of exercise needed to add a pound of muscle may vary for several reasons.

If a person is a couch potato who does not exercise at all, he may be able to add a pound of muscle with a lower number of calories spent on exercise vs. a highly developed, body builder who already has lots of highly developed musculature.

Why do you think it would be less than the number of calories to add a pound of fat?
Couch potatoes vs BBrs I know, that's why I said how many cals extra. Not how many to eat, but how many excess over and above maintenance for metabolism and activity, etc.

It should be less going by the energy value of a pound of muscle vs a pound of fat. Muscle, aside from the energy it's going to take for the structure's physiology to be built which is more complex than adipose tissue I would think, is like a store of protein (sure to us it's more than that) whereas adipose is a store of fat. The energy from a gram of protein is 4cals, 9cals for 1g fat. So, unless the difference in the energy of fat and muscle formation going by their stored energy is made up by the extra complexity of muscle vs adipose I'm thinking muscle would be less.

Also, most of fat tissue is fat, whereas much of muscle is water.
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:28 PM   #20
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I don't think there's any exact answer to this. Everybody is different and will have different needs. Also, training programs are different and will produce different results in different people. With that said, we are left with general guidelines such as eat an extra 3500 calories to gain a pound (hopefully mostly muscle but there will be some fat).

I recently started reading "Fitness an Health" by Sharkey and Gaskill. I haven't gotten to the speific section yet but I looked up their recommendations for weight gain and they say the following for adding one pound per week:

- Have a strength training program to build lean body weight.
- Reduce calorie burning activities such as aerobics and sports activities.
- Increase calorie consumption (+750 calories on weight training days and +250 calories on non training days). These extra calories should be largely from low fat, protein rich foods.

Seems pretty basic to me but remember that YMMV. I used to do a lot of weight training with some pretty hardcore people. I've known people who can add lean pounds easily and others who would eat everything in sight and never gain a pound.

Michael
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