MSG?

[bakechef]

Food allergies are a major problem in my family, my sister has the worst of them, mine are less severe than hers but still significant. This is why I am asking questions here about subbing for processed ingredients, I'm trying to make more things from scratch because I'm finding that the less processed foods I buy the healthier I am overall and the fewer symptoms I experience associated with my food allergies.

I'm not a doctor and I'm not an expert on this subject, nor do I claim to be, but I do know what affects my body....that's all I've got to work with.

Since I have drastically reduced processed foods in my diet, I have noticed an improvement in how I feel, how my skin looks etc...

 

[Andy M.]

Since I have drastically reduced processed foods in my diet, I have noticed an improvement in how I feel, how my skin looks etc...

Holy Mackerel!!! You mean I would feel worse and my skin would look worse if I used processed foods? Woe is me.

 

[suzyQ3]

Well, I did not check my sources with the internet, but I'm sure you can find the studies through medical journals. Or, even easier, check with your nutritionist and endocrinologist - which is how I first heard of them back when I was diagnosed with diabetes. Of course, after reading your note, I had to google too, and here are the first two results that I got. Neither source is what I would call non-credible, though there were plenty of others in the 484,000 hits were cause for giggles. So...research is out there. I'd love to read the rest of this one. Now, it does not say specifically MSG, but glutamate is the G in MSG and the MS is mono-sodium. It breaks down to one sodium and glutamates. Of course, research is still on-going, but it has been out there for a very long time.



I'm trying to think of a good analogy. Okay, it is like saying that a spoon of sugar is actually ice cream. The sugar is a part of the ice cream, like an amino acid is a part of a protein; but sugar is not ice cream and amino acids are not proteins. Proteins are macro-molecules and an amino acid is an itty-bitty thing by comparison...though...when I had to memorize their entire structures I would not have called them itty or bitty. However, now that the nightmares have ended, I'll go with that. When you look at the reactions that people tend to have with MSG, (feeling unwell, headaches, etc.), it seems to fall in line with the sensitivity classification which is what it would be based on its chemistry.

Kathleen, I appreciate your trying to find some sources that implicate MSG with an insulin increase, but none of the three to which you linked specify MSG at all. As for checking with my nutritionist, I'm afraid that would be impossible. But I will definitely ask my internist and my endocrinologist.

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that if it were scientifically proved, it would be very simple to find such studies online. I could not. So my instinct tells me that it is one more myth among a sea of them out there.

 

[Kathleen]

I know it's been said before but NEVER EVER, EVER call someone on their food allergies. A friend is allergic to black pepper (never heard that one before) and his new girlfriend didn't believe there was such an allergy so she snuck some in the first time she cooked a meal for him. He ended up in the hospital...

MSG causes migrainous-type headaches in me. Got on a ramen noodle kick once and was eating them almost every day for lunch, then had severe headaches later in the afternoon into late evening. Finally figured it out after Craig pointed out to me that the noodles probably had MSG in them. Checked the label and sure enough. Stopped eating them and the headaches went away. It's apparently a sensitivity though because I can have a little MSG in my food once in a while and it doesn't bother me.

Karen

That describes me almost exactly. I can tolerate a bit. But a lot will give me an intense headache.

Kathleen, I appreciate your trying to find some sources that implicate MSG with an insulin increase, but none of the three to which you linked specify MSG at all. As for checking with my nutritionist, I'm afraid that would be impossible. But I will definitely ask my internist and my endocrinologist.

I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that if it were scientifically proved, it would be very simple to find such studies online. I could not. So my instinct tells me that it is one more myth among a sea of them out there.

My first google search turned up 484000 results- so pretty simple!

I suspect that you are not reading/comprehending what I've written nor are you understanding the studies. MSG breaks down to sodium and glutamate. The glutamate causes the reactions described and research on the effects of glutamate is substantial. I'm sure some studies are right and some are wrong. Research is always on-going. (Eggs use to be considered bad, and now studies say they are good for you.) In any case, I will not break it down for you any more than that as high school science texts should be able to clarify your MSG/Glutamate confusion at this point. My apologies.

 

[suzyQ3]

Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.

The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.

Certainly, the jury is not out. We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.

 

[Kathleen]

Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.

The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.

Certainly, the jury is not out. We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.

I'm not saying MSG is bad or good. I'm saying some people have sensitivities and some do not. I'm also saying that MSG breaks down to sodium and glutamate, and that glutamate has been proven to do several things including to stimulate the pancreas to increase insulin production. (That in itself is neither good or bad: It depends on the person involved and, in my case, it would be useful if I did not seem to get headaches after eating things which have a lot of MSG in them.) Again, to use an analogy, MSG is to glutamate what carbohydrates are to glucose.

As far as wikipedia goes, it is like any other source online. Thanks, but I prefer to read the actual studies from reputable research centers for my source. I did not mean to offend you, but your replies indicate that you either have not read what I've written or you do not comprehend. In either case, or neither case, this is the last time I intend to respond to you on this issue as I had only hoped to give some insight and clarity on allergies/sensitivities and to offer a few think-abouts.

 

[suzyQ3]

I'm not saying MSG is bad or good. I'm saying some people have sensitivities and some do not. I'm also saying that MSG breaks down to sodium and glutamate, and that glutamate has been proven to do several things including to stimulate the pancreas to increase insulin production. (That in itself is neither good or bad: It depends on the person involved and, in my case, it would be useful if I did not seem to get headaches after eating things which have a lot of MSG in them.) Again, to use an analogy, MSG is to glutamate what carbohydrates are to glucose.

As far as wikipedia goes, it is like any other source online. Thanks, but I prefer to read the actual studies from reputable research centers for my source. I did not mean to offend you, but your replies indicate that you either have not read what I've written or you do not comprehend. In either case, or neither case, this is the last time I intend to respond to you on this issue as I had only hoped to give some insight and clarity on allergies/sensitivities and to offer a few think-abouts.

You're making several leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. Again, there is not one credible study that is considered conclusive or the gold standard in this area that specifies that MSG in its form or in its breakdown causes any harm whatsoever, including causing a rise in insulin.

And yes, I pretty much knew that my wiki link would elicit the exact reaction you had. That's a shame because it refers to and analyzes the most prevalent studies conducted to date.

 

[PrincessFiona60]

Okay, you both have had your say. Friendly discussion, please!

 

[suzyQ3]

Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.

The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.

Certainly, the jury is not out. We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.

Edit to say "Certainly, the jury is still out."

 

[pacanis]

...As far as wikipedia goes, it is like any other source online...

I love reading statements like this... online.
It's like the electronic version of do as I say, not as I do.

 

[FrankZ]

You're making several leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. Again, there is not one credible study that is considered conclusive or the gold standard in this area that specifies that MSG in its form or in its breakdown causes any harm whatsoever, including causing a rise in insulin.

And yes, I pretty much knew that my wiki link would elicit the exact reaction you had. That's a shame because it refers to and analyzes the most prevalent studies conducted to date.

After doing some reading it appears the accepted standard is a tripling of plasma insulin from MSG. While wikipedia might not agree, the American Physioligical Society does, amongst others.

Injecting of lab rats and mice with MSG appears to also be able to induce obesity (because of insulin levels), and seems to be the accepted practice for this.

I will admit I am not trained as a biologist. If you have formal credentials then I will, of course, have to accede to your expertise in this.

 

[bakechef]

Kathleen, I understand quite well. You cannot point me to a scientifically proven, credible, and accepted study that definitively demonstrates that the additive MSG as produced and used as a flavor enhancer increases insulin to a degree that would be dangerous for diabetics.

The sites that I have checked out are pure junk science and fear-mongering and have MSG causing everything from headaches to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS.

Certainly, the jury is not out. We may learn more in the future. Here (link) is the most comprehensive page I can find that doesn't use inflammatory language and that actually cites studies.

Thing about science, it is always evolving.

Let me put it this way, if certain people had car problems because an additive in the gas caused their car to run poorly and was causing possible damage, would you keep putting that gas in your car when there was an alternative that is not known to cause the same problems?

So why are people so willing to put suspect additives in their bodies?

 

[Andy M.]

Thing about science, it is always evolving.

Let me put it this way, if certain people had car problems because an additive in the gas caused their car to run poorly and was causing possible damage, would you keep putting that gas in your car when there was an alternative that is not known to cause the same problems?

So why are people so willing to put suspect additives in their bodies?

But what if that car had problems with the gas because there was something wrong with the car and not the gas? Should I still stop using it?

 

[bakechef]

But what if that car had problems with the gas because there was something wrong with the car and not the gas? Should I still stop using it?

Either you are missing my point, or you are trying to get a rise out of me.

 

[Kathleen]

Thing about science, it is always evolving.

Let me put it this way, if certain people had car problems because an additive in the gas caused their car to run poorly and was causing possible damage, would you keep putting that gas in your car when there was an alternative that is not known to cause the same problems?

So why are people so willing to put suspect additives in their bodies?

In no case am I saying that MSG is not safe nor have I said that it is harmful. (Unless a person has a sensitivity to it - then it is harmful to that one person.) Really, a person would have to work hard to eat food without sodium and glutamate in it. Tomatoes have it. MILK has it. (Human breast milk has 10X more than cow milk, for example.) One's body does not react any differently to MSG's breakdown into sodium and glutamate than that which occurs naturally - but our bodies react to glutamate (and it reacts to sodium).

The controversy and questions come in about the balance within a body. Does it add too much? No one knows. What they do know is what glutamate (and sodium) do within an organism. The real question is how much is too much. Too much of anything...even oxygen...can be harmful,

I love reading statements like this... online.
It's like the electronic version of do as I say, not as I do.

I know, but we are not all to teleconferencing yet!

 

[bakechef]

In no case am I saying that MSG is not safe nor have I said that it is harmful. (Unless a person has a sensitivity to it - then it is harmful to that one person.) Really, a person would have to work hard to eat food without sodium and glutamate in it. Tomatoes have it. MILK has it. (Human breast milk has 10X more than cow milk, for example.) One's body does not react any differently to MSG's breakdown into sodium and glutamate than that which occurs naturally - but our bodies react to glutamate (and it reacts to sodium).

The controversy and questions come in about the balance within a body. Does it add too much? No one knows. What they do know is what glutamate (and sodium) do within an organism. The real question is how much is too much. Too much of anything...even oxygen...can be harmful,



I know, but we are not all to teleconferencing yet!

I completely agree. It is my opinion that these things naturally occurring in foods are harmless and are at proper levels for our bodies to process them. It is when we engineer these things and they are no longer in their natural form, then added to foods where they become suspect to me. These engineered sodium and glutamates, may be processed by the body differently, we just cannot be sure, so to me they are suspect.

Salt is something that the body needs to function, heavily processed foods with a lot of sodium added to them are harmful to the body, almost everyone can agree about this. Salt is fairly harmless, but when consumed in excess it is bad.

 

[Andy M.]

Either you are missing my point, or you are trying to get a rise out of me.

Neither, I'm making a point of my own.

Because one person has a sensitivity to a food additive or any type of drug, food or whatever, does not mean it's generally harmful to all humans. It means that some people cannot tolerate it.

 

[bakechef]

Neither, I'm making a point of my own.

Because one person has a sensitivity to a food additive or any type of drug, food or whatever, does not mean it's generally harmful to all humans. It means that some people cannot tolerate it.

But... it is clearly obvious from this thread that there is more than one person sensitive to this food additive.

Because you don't show symptoms, does not mean that it is not harmful. I am not making a definitive statement that MSG is bad, I just don't know, but to me it is suspect, and I am close to someone who is sensitive to it.

Because some people react badly to it, and there is some evidence that it could be harmful, I will avoid it. If you are convinced that it is harmless then you are welcome to consume all that you want. At this time there is no right or wrong on this subject, just opinions.

 

[cmarchibald]

Holy Mackerel!!! You mean I would feel worse and my skin would look worse if I used processed foods? Woe is me.

It may seem like a no brainer to you and me, but I know so many people who drink Mountain Dew and eat fried chicken all day and can't figure out why they feel like crap.

 

[pacanis]

It may seem like a no brainer to you and me, but I know so many people who drink Mountain Dew and eat fried chicken all day and can't figure out why they feel like crap.

What a coincidence. The only time I drink Mountain Dew is when I visit KFC. They just seem to go together
That's only about 1x/year though.