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Old 04-17-2008, 11:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by kitchenelf View Post
He also knows the laws on recording in the State of Ohio because the link is posted right above.
Yep.

or has obtained the consent of at least one participant, is legal

Which is something I've known for a VERY long time. Decades actually. I first became aware of the issue when a couple of henchmen breaking into a hotel room made national news.

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Wart - your comment

Not one person who has ever worked in a kitchen disputes that.
Which is why I asked people to state their 'creds' in the Steak thread. It cut down alot on the ... emotional and judgmental ... postings. And I also wanted to separate the thoughts of those who have actually worked in a kitchen from the Happy Vally parrots (AKA the Me Too postings).


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Numerous technical and outright violations....??? I guarantee you that at the end of the day ****'s Kitchen is clean and hot things have been safely cooled and stored. Not completely understanding why you even brought this up.
To illustrate how even the "best" of kitchens and "cooks" don't always follow the rules, and how its RIGHT THERE to be seen IF you know what to watch and look for. What I've seen on these shows is more of a smile or raise an eyebrow event and not the jump up and yell HOLY MOSES stuff I've posted in these threads.

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What it boils down to is we've done all we can do. It's up to you now, Wart.
The call to action. ;)

What I know is there are many paths I can take.

What I know is the health inspector told this group to not do something and they went right back to doing it.

What I know is for a lasting change to come about change has to come from inside.

What I know is it's easy to state 'call the health department' and that would be the easy way 'out' but read my last two What I know(s). What I suspect is taking the easy way out and calling the health department would more than likely result in my being out of there and ultimately the situation continuing. And that wouldn't be morally or socially responsible would it?

What I know is the world is not black and white.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Wart View Post
...What I suspect is taking the easy way out and calling the health department would more than likely result in my being out of there and ultimately the situation continuing. And that wouldn't be morally or socially responsible would it?

What I know is the world is not black and white.


If you aren't calling the Health Department because you don't want to get fired, that's one thing.

If you don't call because you don't think it will do any good long term, that's another. I'd bet if management won't respond to the HD, they certainly won't respond to you. In fact, you have already learned that confronting management yourself is futle. Go back and listen to the taped conversation.

I believe you cannot effect change without the HD. Managemnent doesn;t have to listen to you, they can fire you.
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Old 04-17-2008, 02:13 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Wart View Post

The call to action. ;)

What I know is it's easy to state 'call the health department' and that would be the easy way 'out' but read my last two What I know(s). What I suspect is taking the easy way out and calling the health department would more than likely result in my being out of there and ultimately the situation continuing. And that wouldn't be morally or socially responsible would it?
Interesting, because yesterday you said:

"I'm going to the health department Thursday to either get or find out how I obtain a copy of their regs. I suspect their regs will be the same as the State or Federal codes, Regs, etc. I will then dump them on the boss and note it in my notebook.

While at the health department I will inquire how to set up the club for an inspection when I know a hazardous situation will exist."

I guess anyone who wants or needs a job cooking for a fraternal organization with a boss who doesn't care, a leaky roof, oozing black mold, and a host of other major health violations as badly as you seem to, doesn't need me pressuring them.

Good luck....seriously.
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by mozart View Post
I guess anyone who wants or needs a job cooking for a fraternal organization with a boss who doesn't care, a leaky roof, oozing black mold, and a host of other major health violations as badly as you seem to, doesn't need me pressuring them.

Well Mozart, in a thread from a while ago you wrote:

However, from a pathogenic bacteria standpoint, it probably isn't any worse off than it was on day two, assuming the refrigerator is functioning properly.

LOL!!

In that same thread I wrote:

Cooking/ recooking does little to nothing to reduce the bacteria/ pathogen and parasite poop ... I mean toxins.


to which you replied:

I don't disagree with you. But the vast majority of those toxins are not harmful and are not heat stable.

Load a chamber and spin the cylinder? Put the barrel to the head and squeeze the trigger?

Since that Corn Chowder thread you haven't been in a position to 'apply pressure' when it comes to food safety. Least not as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be pointing this out if your last post didn't have an ... odor .... about it.

Have a nice day. L
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:48 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Wart View Post
Well Mozart, in a thread from a while ago you wrote:

However, from a pathogenic bacteria standpoint, it probably isn't any worse off than it was on day two, assuming the refrigerator is functioning properly.

LOL!!

In that same thread I wrote:

Cooking/ recooking does little to nothing to reduce the bacteria/ pathogen and parasite poop ... I mean toxins.

to which you replied:

I don't disagree with you. But the vast majority of those toxins are not harmful and are not heat stable.

Load a chamber and spin the cylinder? Put the barrel to the head and squeeze the trigger?

Since that Corn Chowder thread you haven't been in a position to 'apply pressure' when it comes to food safety. Least not as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be pointing this out if your last post didn't have an ... odor .... about it.

Have a nice day. L
Well Wart,

I stand by both those quotes and would welcome any documentation you can provide that would refute them.

Bacterial toxins are just not a big issue in food safety in general with only Staph aureus being significant in pre or uncooked foods, and only Clostridium perfringens being significant in post-cooked food. Botulism toxin is very rare, and is found mainly in home canned foods or those not properly processed. Most recalls are for the "potential of botulism", meaning that there is doubt that some piece of equipment functioned properly during processing.

Food placed in a properly functioning refrigerator does not produce additional pathogenic bacteria growth. It also produces no additional "dangerous toxins". So the statement that it is no more dangerous on day 6 than on day one is true from a food safety standpoint.

All bacteria produce waste and most of it isn't toxic to humans. There are billions of bacteria in our environment and if they were toxic, we would all be dead
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by mozart View Post
Food placed in a properly functioning refrigerator does not produce additional pathogenic bacteria growth. It also produces no additional "dangerous toxins". So the statement that it is no more dangerous on day 6 than on day one is true from a food safety standpoint.

All bacteria produce waste and most of it isn't toxic to humans. There are billions of bacteria in our environment and if they were toxic, we would all be dead
Ok, if food in a properly refrigerated environment doesn't grow bacteria, then why does food still spoil? And I'm not talking mold, either. My local health department always stresses that proper refrigeration does not "stop" bacterial growth, just that proper refrigeration "slows" bacterial growth to the point that food can last for several days in the fridge before it spoils.

I will agree that most bacterial waste products are not toxic. However, some are, and that "potential" is what makes me nervous about serving food that has the "bugs cooked to death".
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:50 AM   #47
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Ok, if food in a properly refrigerated environment doesn't grow bacteria, then why does food still spoil? And I'm not talking mold, either. My local health department always stresses that proper refrigeration does not "stop" bacterial growth, just that proper refrigeration "slows" bacterial growth to the point that food can last for several days in the fridge before it spoils.

I will agree that most bacterial waste products are not toxic. However, some are, and that "potential" is what makes me nervous about serving food that has the "bugs cooked to death".
Hi Allen,

The key word here is "pathogenic" which means "disease causing". Pathogenic bacteria will survive below 40 degrees, but will not multiply, in general. The reason is because pathogenic bacteria thrive at host temperatures and since we are the host, that would be in the 90s.

Food spoilage bacteria will multiply in the refrigerator, but do not generally cause disease.

There are, of course, exceptions to every case. Listeria, for example has been shown to multiply to some degree after refrigeration. However, cooking kills it, and leftovers will not likely have the organism. In addition, listeria is generally fought off by a healthy persons who do not have compromised immune systems. The very young, very old, and pregnant women are most at risk.

Toxins will always be a concern once people have heard about them and that some are heat stable, sort of like killer bees or the green stuff on potatoes.

Staph is the only one of significance in pre-cooked or uncooked foods because the toxin is heat stable. Proper refrigeration out of the danger zone prevents this before cooking.

Clostridium perfringens occurs when the spores of the bacteria are heat shocked during cooking and then the food is mishandled afterwords and kept too long in the danger zone. The bacteria multiply and then are ingested. The intoxication occurs in the intestine, not in the food.
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Old 04-24-2008, 01:00 PM   #48
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Not all of the toxins bacteria produce affect humans, but of the ones that do some are lethal. Botulism, for example. It's very often fatal and no amount of cooking breaks the toxin down.
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Old 04-24-2008, 01:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by mozart View Post
FWIW, I don't think going to the media is a good choice at this point. It may cause the Lodge great harm and lost respect in the community, and that is not your goal.

Had you called the Health Department and requested that someone come out immediately at the time you took the pictures, they would have likely required that the fish be thrown out. That ends that night's fish fry and is a powerful incentive to follow proper procedures; lost revenue and embarrassment. They will also likely explain to the license holder that they are responsible for their "guest cook's" practices and possibly require an improvement plan from the Lodge.

In most cases, this is all that will be necessary.
I agree with that. ^^^

It's one thing to report things you have seen at work, but the recordings, photos and other things you have written seem more like a personal vendetta at this point.

I would let the local authorities do their job and you stick to yours.
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Old 04-24-2008, 02:20 PM   #50
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Not all of the toxins bacteria produce affect humans, but of the ones that do some are lethal. Botulism, for example. It's very often fatal and no amount of cooking breaks the toxin down.
Hi Rob:

This is a common misconception about botulism. The toxin is not hard to deactivate with heat.

First, the chance of getting botulism, based on reported cases, in any year is 1 in 10 million. Pretty rare.

Second, the toxin produced is not "bug poop" or waste products, it is a protein. This protein is heat labile, meaning it can be readily deactivated by heat. It takes 180 degrees F for 10 minute to deactivate it. The reason there are occasional cases from canned foods, like beans, is that we don't usually cook canned foods for that long, we merely heat them.

The actual botulism spores, however, are extremely heat resistant, and usually will take pressure cooking at well above normal boiling to kill them. PH is another factor in the time and temp it takes. Botulism isn't found in canned foods with PH below 4.6, like tomatoes.

If botulism spores are not killed by cooking no toxin will be produced unless the food is placed in an anaerobic condition, like a vacuum sealed can.

The one exception to this is infant botulism which is occasionally associated with honey. Botulism spores are commonly found in the soil and are picked up by bees and mixed in the honey. Usually, adults have no problem ingesting and eliminating these spores, but infants are missing what ever it is that kills them and the spores become bacteria in the infant's intestines and then produce the toxin. The actually missing process is not totally understood. Some think it is stomach acid of which infants have little. Some think it is just a weaker immune system. In any even, this is the basis for not feeding infants honey.

OK, probably more than you wanted to know
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