Fraternal lodge safety situation and question(s).

[Wart]

Please excuse me if this is disjointed.

Left over spaghetti sauce.

Situation:

I'm not sure how this sauce was made initially. I'll assume cans of sauce were emptied into roasters and pre cooked meat balls and sausage added and the sauce brought to a temperature of 165 or greater. This is not a safe assumption. I do not know how this sauce was cooled, eventually it made its way into plastic sherbet containers and was frozen.

Real story starts here.

I enter the kitchen and the 'cook' is putting the frozen masses of sauce into the roasters to thaw them. Once thawed the cook brought the sauce to a simmer. Then the roaster pans were removed and the pans were placed into a ~ 35 degree walk in cooler. The next day the pans were once again placed in the roasters and reheated and served.

Pretty bad?

The left over sauce was put into sherbert containers and frozen.

These frozen containers of sauce were once again emptied into roasters, thawed and brought to a simmer. After simmering for several hours the roasters were unplugged and placed in a cool back room (this room probably didn't get below 40 degrees). The pans were not removed from the roaster. The next day the roasters were brought into the kitchen and once again the sauce was brought to a simmer. And served.

After the serving the left over sauce was again placed in sherburt containers with the intent of being frozen for the next time sauce was needed. The cook put it in the walk in cooler. I put it in the dumpster.

This happened at a fraternal organizations lodge. This organizations members range in age from toddlers to the elderly. Fact, this lodge is made up of members from the major groups that need safe food.

The "cook"? She is a retired nurse who insists the toxins cook out and the bugs are killed. She cannot see the big deal (pretty much her words).

I'm in a food safety class (ServeSafe), these people have been driving me batty. Before starting this class I wondered if the procedures were safe, now I know they aren't.

I was anxious when I first realized the sauce was not disposed of after the first (known) reheat. And when I found out during the second (known) reheat the roasters were placed in a cool room and not only the pans put in the walk in cooler I had an actual 'grab hold of something solid and take deep breaths' anxiety attack.

My official position in this lodge is that of designated cook. BUT various other groups have their functions involving my kitchen that I have no say over. This was one of those times.

This was a vent (thanks), and also, how do you drag someones head out of their no sunshine areas?

 

[Katie H]

Oh! I am speechless. What potential for disaster!!! Glad you were able to vent.

 

[stassie]

!! I've been known to do things which others on this site would consider unsafe (such as like taking a ham sandwich for lunch unrefrigerated). This... I wouldn't do that in a million years, even for my own family. Let alone cooking this way for large groups of others...!

!!!

 

[GB]

Unfortunately you will probably never be able to change people like that. I am just glad you were able to dispose of that stuff before anyone got sick.

 

[mozart]

Hi Wart:

I suggest you go to your boss ( that may be a person or a Lodge board) and explain what you have seen and the liability that the lodge is taking on by allowing these practices.

If there is a major food poisoning there, people will remember the name of the lodge, not the group who was using the facility. In addition, Lawyers will look to both the group and the lodge for damage recovery and the Health Department will hold the lodge responsible too, as they are the ones with the licensed kitchen.

All in all, this argument should convince your superiors to modify their oversight of their kitchen facilities.

If it doesn't, then you have a decision to make. Anxiety attacks are a message. You are going to feel really bad if something happens and you don't take some action. If you don't get support from your employer, call the Health Department.

 

[pacanis]

!! I've been known to do things which others on this site would consider unsafe (such as like taking a ham sandwich for lunch unrefrigerated). ......
!!!

I'm in shock. Why, I haven't eaten an unrefrigerated ham, cheese and MAYO (gawd forbid) sandwich since.... Well, since I carried them almost every day through grade school in the seventies in my Bonanza lunch pail And working into the nineties! (lost the Bonanza lunch pail by then )

Seriously, I'm pretty interested in this thread. I thought I read on this site a while back that tomato sauce keeps very well.... something about the acids. And that's why a lot of places (and folks) don't refrigerate catsup....
Maybe I missed something, but catsup is pretty similar to spaghetti sauce, isn't it?

 

[Andy M.]

As Frank Barone used to say, "Holy Crap!"

I'd say you saved the organization from law suits and any number of people from illness and/or death.

 

[mozart]

Maybe I missed something, but catsup is pretty similar to spaghetti sauce, isn't it?

Only if you put meatballs and sausage in your ketchup

 

[pacanis]

Only if you put meatballs and sausage in your ketchup

Close.......
I put tomato based sauce on my meatballs and sausage

 

[mozart]

Close.......
I put tomato based sauce on my meatballs and sausage

Seriously, the difference is that tomato sauce is made with tomatoes, oil and spices. The ph is likely to be above the 4.6 required to not need refrigeration. When you add meat to the sauce, the ph of the meat raises the overall ph of the sauce and bacteria can multiply.

Ketchup is made from tomatoes, vinegar, and corn syrup. Vinegar has a ph of 2.2 and is able to keep the ph of the whole product below 4.6

 

[pacanis]

Wait.... I had it here somewhere..... shoot.....
OK, got it. Found my litmus paper...... off to the kitchen.....
Thanks for the info. Seriously....
It's nice to break down things into finer details. Even if I don't want to read the answers!

 

[fireweaver]

ditto what mozart says. also, prepared packaged foods (like, say, ketchup) are handled in a very clean fashion in the plant, AND you don't add anything into the bottle...i.e., there's not a source of bacteria getting inside that hostile-to-microbes vinegar environment.

but the situation outlined up above? jeeez! if i *wanted* to design a way to give everyone a whopping dose of clostridium, it'd be this story, and botulism wouldn't be too far off of the scenario either. go check out the usda's discussion of foodborne illnesses if you'd like more info on such things:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/intro.html

 

[GrillingFool]

You might want to check and see if there is a governmental health inspection
agency that could come in and check the place out.
That might be the kick needed to change things in the kitchen.

 

[Dave Hutchins]

Go to the board of directors, Call the health Dept. or find another job you do not want to be involved in a food poisoning court case.

 

[Wart]

Hi Wart:

I suggest you go to your boss ( that may be a person or a Lodge board) and explain what you have seen and the liability that the lodge is taking on by allowing these practices.

Tried.

Gives me an idea on another thread. One about thawing frozen fish.

If there is a major food poisoning there, people will remember the name of the lodge, not the group who was using the facility. In addition, Lawyers will look to both the group and the lodge for damage recovery and the Health Department will hold the lodge responsible too, as they are the ones with the licensed kitchen.

Tried pointing this out.

What I've been told is this is how they have always done things.

They can't figure out why attendance at their dinners has dwindled.

All in all, this argument should convince your superiors to modify their oversight of their kitchen facilities.

Didn't.

If it doesn't, then you have a decision to make.

So true.

The way the Moose rules are written someone can be an Officer or an employee. Not both at once.

I'm thinking of resigning my employment and taking the position of Trustee.

You are going to feel really bad if something happens and you don't take some action.

Yeah. I don't know which position, Employee or Trustee, will better lend itself to me changing the situation.

 

[Wart]

Ketchup is made from tomatoes, vinegar, and corn syrup. Vinegar has a ph of 2.2 and is able to keep the ph of the whole product below 4.6

Uhhh, they refrigerate Ketchup and vinegar. And Franks Hot Sauce.

I had one of the officers tell me ketchup goes bad. I told him it doesn't but I left it in the refrigerator because I didn't feel like arguing about it.

Never occurred to them vinegar is a preservative. And if the bottles are kept full and in a cool dark place it takes quite a while for the vinegar to go bad.

 

[PanchoHambre]

you mean to tell me that thrice cooked tomoato sauce is not a delicacy


Seriously EEW I hate to think what is going on in so many places that serve food

and i am not nearly the food safety maven the thought of what is described gives me hearburn

 

[AllenOK]

Ketchup can and will spoil! But, not in the way you all think. It ferments. I've seen it happen. The fast food joint I worked at as a teen and in my early 20's flirted with the idea of leaving a big pot of ketcup, with a pump and lid, OUT AT ROOM TEMP ALL DAY. The Health Department never had a problem with it. However, after a couple days, it had started to "go", and was full of bubbles, and smelled like tomato and yeast.

Wart, if I was in your shoes, I'd go in with a digital camera, and prob thermometer. Take pics of the "roasters" full of sauce being left to chill, with the probe therm in place, registering who knows what temp. Maybe even take pics of the frozen sauce being heated in roasters to thaw (frozen foods need to be thawed in the refrigerator!). Print those pics. Resign completely, and walk away. Then I'd turn those pics in to the Health Department on a complaint, which usually warrants an inspection. I'd time it so the inspection happens during a function.

I'm sorry, but as a professional cook, I have no being the complaintant that ends up shutting a place down. Heck, I'd even be willing to call local news services to get the word out. I wouldn't worry about the fraternal group trying to get "revenge" on me, as I'd resign from the group.

 

[kitchenelf]

I have eaten that fermented ketchup - YUCK!!!!

Wart - this is no small matter. And as Trustee - don't you have to be appointed? There's usually an "order" to becoming one. Don't know about the Moose Lodge but know about others.

This needs to be brought up in a House Committee meeting, if that's what you call it, and it needs to be dealt with in a very adult, serious manner. This nurse just doesn't understand the facts of food - she may be a great nurse - but she's certainly not a great cook. She can do whatever she wants at home, but, cooking for the public is a different thing. Maybe you can have a Home Ec teacher from a local community college or even the high school come in and speak to the House Committee.

 

[Caine]

Maybe I missed something, but catsup is pretty similar to spaghetti sauce, isn't it?

My Sicilian grandmother just rolled over in her grave, twice, then advised me, through a medium, to find you and cut out your tongue!