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Old 10-04-2006, 08:27 AM   #21
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No, I'm not making that assumption, GB..

And at my age, 'developmental disorders' or 'sterility' are of little importance!

All I'm saying is: that for ME (only me, noone else), I feel that the pleasure I gain from using the decanters for the purpose they were designed, outweighs any SLIGHT risk to me.

What others choose to do must be THEIR choice too... But Cara and I come from cultures where old things matter!
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:44 AM   #22
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I completely agree that each person needs to weigh the risks personally and make their own informed decision as to what they should do for themselves.

I was just responding to your points of saying that Europeans might consider it an over-reaction to the dangers as well as your retort about no massive numbers dropping dead and your chances of dying being minimal.

While developmental disorders and sterility might not be of importance to people of a certain age, I would think that things like sluggishness, hearing loss, kidney damage, irritability, difficulty sleeping, and many others would be things of concern.

Again, I am not trying to say that what you do is right or wrong. That is not my place and I would never dream of telling you how to live your life. That is certainly not my place. If you are happy doing what you are doing then I say more power to you. I just wanted to point these things out so that the original poster could make his/her own informed decision as to if it is safe to use these decanters. For each person, that answer will be different. No right or wrong.

FWIW old things matter in the culture I come from as well.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:50 AM   #23
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ish, it's a little insulting and somewhat snobbish to claim that "old things" only matter to europeans.

hmmm, what arguement could you make for chinese, jewish, and certain african and arabic cultures?

i'm also surprised that you turn a blind eye to a simple health risk for reasons of vanity, but are one of the first to proclaim the benefits of organic foods. it doesn't follow, but as you said, it's your choice.

oh, btw, it is assumed that the decline of the roman empire was in large part due to lead poisoning. (they used a lotta lead in their cooking. heat, like acids, speed up the leaching of lead into the substance within.) they didn't drop dead, but i'm sure it wasn't a picnic.

if anyone feels they have enough energy to spare some; and some extra i.q. points to give away; have no fear of old age diseases like alzheimer's; and a strong enough liver and kidneys and heart to withstand a little poisoning, then by all means, use those pretty bottles for storage.

cara, did you know beethoven died from lead poisoning? it was no secret that he indulged in wine and alcohol from lead crystal bottles and cups.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:16 AM   #24
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"Irritability" certainly seems key here ...

Looked this up in my handy-dandy "Home Comforts: The Art & Science of Keeping House" by Cheryl Mendelson (American, it has to be said) as I remember she'd made a big stink about it, but decided against quoting her at length when I read the following --

"Never give an infant milk or juice from a leaded crystal bottle."

I thought that had a bit too much of a "writing to you from la-la land" touch to it to carry on with her as a guide.

* * *

Ahem. The "better safe than sorry" approach has to be tempered with good common sense, doesn't it? In this particular debate -- like other ones on this site which seem obviously related -- the underlying question is whether generations of safe practice should be discarded as irrelevant simply because An Authority has declared that such practice *ought* to be unsafe. Theory versus practice, and also ... obedience to versus skepticism of authority.

Deep passions here, and a number of cultural sore points. Can this debate be continued without it getting nasty?
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton
generations of safe practice
That is the point exactly though. What makes you think that this has been a safe practice?

Have you ever known anyone who has had liver problems? Hearing problems? Sleeping problems? And the list goes on and on. Can you say with certainty that these problems were not, at least in part, contributed to by lead?
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckytom
ish, it's a little insulting and somewhat snobbish to claim that "old things" only matter to europeans.

hmmm, what arguement could you make for chinese, jewish, and certain african and arabic cultures?

i'm also surprised that you turn a blind eye to a simple health risk for reasons of vanity, but are one of the first to proclaim the benefits of organic foods. it doesn't follow, but as you said, it's your choice.

oh, btw, it is assumed that the decline of the roman empire was in large part due to lead poisoning. (they used a lotta lead in their cooking. heat, like acids, speed up the leaching of lead into the substance within.) they didn't drop dead, but i'm sure it wasn't a picnic.

if anyone feels they have enough energy to spare some; and some extra i.q. points to give away; have no fear of old age diseases like alzheimer's; and a strong enough liver and kidneys and heart to withstand a little poisoning, then by all means, use those pretty bottles for storage.

cara, did you know beethoven died from lead poisoning? it was no secret that he indulged in wine and alcohol from lead crystal bottles and cups.
Trying to be insulting is not my style, BT. Believe me, if I WANTED to insult, it would not by the type of comment you've just made. What on EARTH has 'vanity' to do with my views on organic food or crystal decanters?

You seem to delight in telling me that my views are either snobbish or too British in content.

Did I say anything suggesting for a minute that either Jewish or Chinese or whoever had no cultural longevity?

All I'm trying to say is: I store alcohol in crystal decanters. I have always done so. I do not leave the alcohol in those containers for long periods of time, therefore the risks, such as they are, should be minimal to ME or my guests and family.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB
That is the point exactly though. What makes you think that this has been a safe practice?

Have you ever known anyone who has had liver problems? Hearing problems? Sleeping problems? And the list goes on and on. Can you say with certainty that these problems were not, at least in part, contributed to by lead?
No, of course I can't, GB. However, like Ishbel, I have to say I'm not aware of any epidemic of possibly-related-problems that would seem to indicate the European habit (which of course, it isn't really) of storing in lead crystal is inherently a dangerous one.

One thing that occurs to me, however, which I think weakens your argument a bit, is that IF there's a "European habit" of improper use of lead crystal, it's surely a habit limited to the upper classes. And of those ailments you mention -- liver problems, hearing problems, sleeping problems -- those most assuredly are NOT limited to the upper classes.

How about lead-level testing kit for anybody who really, really wants to store in those decanters, but is a bit leery about doing so?
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:58 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton
No, of course I can't, GB. However, like Ishbel, I have to say I'm not aware of any epidemic of possibly-related-problems that would seem to indicate the European habit (which of course, it isn't really) of storing in lead crystal is inherently a dangerous one.
And that is it exactly. How many people have hearing problems? How many people have liver problems? how many people have (fill in the blank) problems? These are common problems that would very easily be contributed to a number of different things. Just because we are not aware that the problem comes from a specific cause does not mean that it does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton
One thing that occurs to me, however, which I think weakens your argument a bit, is that IF there's a "European habit" of improper use of lead crystal, it's surely a habit limited to the upper classes. And of those ailments you mention -- liver problems, hearing problems, sleeping problems -- those most assuredly are NOT limited to the upper classes.
I fail to see how this weakens my argument. I never said that the only cause of these problems was lead poisoning. Those problems can be caused by a numbr of different reasons, but one of them happens to be lead.
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Old 10-04-2006, 10:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB
And that is it exactly. How many people have hearing problems? How many people have liver problems? how many people have (fill in the blank) problems? These are common problems that would very easily be contributed to a number of different things. Just because we are not aware that the problem comes from a specific cause does not mean that it does not.
Sure, no argument there. I just think this might be a short road to insanity, thinking that everything, potentially, is dangerous. Is it the lead in the crystal ... or is it my anti-perspirant sort of thinking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GB
I fail to see how this weakens my argument. I never said that the only cause of these problems was lead poisoning. Those problems can be caused by a numbr of different reasons, but one of them happens to be lead.
My point was only that if a symptom runs across various division lines -- cultural, racial, whatever -- but a possible cause can only be attributed to a particular group, that weakens the possibility that it's THE cause for the symptom in question. The number of people with the problems you mentioned versus the number of people regularly drinking from lead-crystal decanters would lead me to look for another more likely cause.
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Old 10-04-2006, 11:18 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton
I just think this might be a short road to insanity, thinking that everything, potentially, is dangerous. Is it the lead in the crystal ... or is it my anti-perspirant sort of thinking.
There is a difference here. Lead is a know toxin that causes these problem. Your anti-perspirant is not.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrton
My point was only that if a symptom runs across various division lines -- cultural, racial, whatever -- but a possible cause can only be attributed to a particular group, that weakens the possibility that it's THE cause for the symptom in question.
I still do not see how that weakens the argument that drinking from a leaded decanter can cause these problems. I never said it is THE cause for the symptoms in question. What I said was that lead poisoning can cause these problems. There can be many other causes as well, but lead is one of them.

10 people could drink from a leaded decanter. 8 could end up with sleep problems. Did all 8 get the sleep problems because of the lead? Who knows? I would guess that some might have and others have another reason for the problem. That does not mean that lead did not cause the problem in at least some of the 8.
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