Is my meat safe to cook?

[PBear42]

Three gallons of soup isn't a tenth as risky as a pound of uncooked ground beef left in the sink. Remember, it's been cooked. If cooked thoroughly, we're talking only about spores. So, the difference between letting it cool on the stove v. charging immediately into the fridge isn't huge. That said, proper HACCP procedure would be to speed chill the soup (not that this is always done). In a professional kitchen, usually with freezable inserts. At home, by putting the pot inside a larger one (or the tub), running tap water in the latter and stirring the soup often. Or, more simply, by dividing the soup into smaller containers so it cools more quickly.

 

[YT2095]

yeah, Surface area plays a huge roll in this also, the greater the exposed area of the food the more microbes adhere to it in one go and start their little escapades!

 

[bethzaring]

Can you clarify please?
If you make 3 gal of soup, take out what you are immediately going to eat, you do not wait for the soup to cool down before refridgerating?
Doesn't that cause the fridge temp to drop or the soup to condensate and water down? I did not know those plastic shelves could even handle a pot right off the stove, unless you are setting the pot on something. That's why I always thought it best to let the food temp drop a little.
But again, the way we were raised or got used to things being done isn't neccesarily the best way

Thanks

I am sorry for the confusion. I was only making a comparison with the volume of a 3 gallon soup to a plate of leftover food. I was in no way trying to steer this thread on the proper way to cool down a 3 gallon pot of soup. We already had that discussion last fall. I was only saying to refrigerate leftovers as soon as possible.

 

[pacanis]

Three gallons of soup isn't a tenth as risky as a pound of uncooked ground beef left in the sink. Remember, it's been cooked..

Sorry PBear, I guess I should have been more detailed.
In an earlier post, when I got involved with questions, I mentioned letting cooked food cool off a little before refrdgerating. Sometime I forget the food until the following morning (usually because I have it out of sight - out of mind from my dogs). Most times I let it cool just a short while to get the temp down a little. Then I wrap it up and refridgerate in hopes of not having a bunch of water droplets on the lid or plastic wrap. I fully understand now that once it gets to room temp it isn't good to keep, no matter how much time was involved in the preperation. Although that last part makes it a harder pill to swallow. What I am trying to figure out now is if it's OK to let it cool at all.

What I was trying to understand from bethzaring, where she agreed with verablue and then mentioned the soup, is if there is a difference between letting a large amount of something cool down as opposed to a small amount. Like it's OK to let 3 gal of soup cool down, but not a bowl. Or it's OK to let a meatloaf cool down you made ahead of time for the next night before refridgerating, but not a hamburger. I am talking about letting them cool down in relation to the same temp as opposed to the same length of time.

If I made a 3 lb meatloaf I would be more hardpressed to throw it out as opposed to 3 lbs of raw burger I forgot about, but then, I grew up in the days of brown bagged lunches. Where it was common to let cooked meat along with bread and mayonnaise sit in the bag under your desk for 5 hours before eating .

 

[pacanis]

OK beth. Just read your reply after I posted. Sorry for recycling an old thread/topic.

 

[YT2095]

getting back ONTO topic, I`ll bet it`s not safe to eat Now!

 

[VeraBlue]

Three gallons of soup isn't a tenth as risky as a pound of uncooked ground beef left in the sink. Remember, it's been cooked. If cooked thoroughly, we're talking only about spores. So, the difference between letting it cool on the stove v. charging immediately into the fridge isn't huge. That said, proper HACCP procedure would be to speed chill the soup (not that this is always done). In a professional kitchen, usually with freezable inserts. At home, by putting the pot inside a larger one (or the tub), running tap water in the latter and stirring the soup often. Or, more simply, by dividing the soup into smaller containers so it cools more quickly.

The best way to do this at home is to freeze water in clean plastic bottles (with no label left on the outside). One 20oz water bottle with frozen water inside will do the trick neatly and quickly at home.

 

[Michael Cook]

I'm a serve safe certified restaurant manager. If cooked through to over 150 degrees for over 60(edited for accuracy) seconds any lil' germies will be dead. If the proper steps are taken this is more a question of offended sensibilities than a real threat.

 

[jennyema]

I'm a serve safe certified restaurant manager. If cooked through to over 150 degrees for over 30 seconds any lil' germies will be dead. If the proper steps are taken this is more a question of offended sensibilities than a real threat.

Then why do we need refrigerators in the first place? As long as you are going to cook something to 150, why not just leave it on the counter?

 

[Michael Cook]

Then why do we need refrigerators in the first place? As long as you are going to cook something to 150, why not just leave it on the counter?

I double checked my foodsafe referances and raw potentially hazardous foods should indeed be cooked to their required minimum internal temperature which for ground meat is 145 degrees (63C) for 3 minutes, 150 degrees (66C) for 1 minute, 155 degrees (68C) for 15 seconds and 158 degrees (70C) for <1 second, or alternatively 165 degrees (74C) in the microwave (yuk, and I don't know why anyone'd cook ground meat in a microwave.)
Rancidity and off flavors are an issue more than bacteria growth or other pathogens.
Modern refridgeration is what, around 60 years old? It amazes me how most Americans see all food as dead and rotting and in constant need of near freezing refridgeration. How do people think we cooked before everything had to neurotically kept below 41 degrees F.?
The other day I had some friends over for supper and I'd made seared tuna with lemon creme fraiche. It was delicious. They loved the food but afterward one of the women asked about the "yummy sour cream" and where did I buy it? After I explained I'd made it and how creme fraiche was made suddenly she was sick because I'd "poisoned" her with "rotten" dairy. (She's a bit of a Pprima Donna.) I tried to explain how lactic acid bacteria curdles milk, that increasingly acid conditions cause the normal bundled micelles of casein protiens to fall apart into seperate casein molecules and the rebond to each other trapping the liquid and fat into a fragile solid as well as keeping the ph too low for competing harmfull bacteria (amazing stuff, Lactobacillus!) but she didn't care and was sure I'd made her sick despite what I, science, and the other five non-hysterical guests told her. Next time I feed her she gets a frozen pot pie and boxed mac & cheese.

 

[jennyema]

But you still haven't answered my question about why you need to refigerate meat at all if you are going to cook it. Going by your logic and science (that cooking kills all the bad stuff, which it doesn't) you wouldn't need it. Yet even your Safe Serve Manual says to refrigerate until ready to prepare.

At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why?

I am quoting from the Safe Serve Manual "Cooking food to the minimum required internal temperature reduces the number of food borne organisms to safe levels, but does not destroy spores and toxins they create."

The reason why it is unsafe to consume meat that has been held in the danger zone for too long, as in this case, even if it's cooked, is because while it sits there, the bacteria are multiplying at an enormous rate. The bacteria gives off toxins and spores which can make you very sick. The toxins and spores are often heat resistant. Thus, even if the bacteria is killed, the toxins they have left behind have infected the food and can cause food poisoning.

 

[Caine]

To answer the original question, the meat is undoubtedly safe to cook.

Now, eating it is a completely different story!

 

[Michael Cook]

But you still haven't answered my question about why you need to refigerate meat at all if you are going to cook it. Going by your logic and science (that cooking kills all the bad stuff, which it doesn't) you wouldn't need it. Yet even your Safe Serve Manual says to refrigerate until ready to prepare.

At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why?

I am quoting from the Safe Serve Manual "Cooking food to the minimum required internal temperature reduces the number of food borne organisms to safe levels, but does not destroy spores and toxins they create."

The reason why it is unsafe to consume meat that has been held in the danger zone for too long, as in this case, even if it's cooked, is because while it sits there, the bacteria are multiplying at an enormous rate. The bacteria gives off toxins and spores which can make you very sick. The toxins and spores are often heat resistant. Thus, even if the bacteria is killed, the toxins they have left behind have infected the food and can cause food poisoning.

First, please don't paraphrase me if you wish to debate specific points. Differances in opinion can only be productive when respectful dialog is maintained. I did answer your question vis-a-vis beef, I said Rancidity and off flavors from fat oxidation are an issue more than bacteria growth or other pathogens.

Suddenly the discussion's shifted to chicken and spores. (Also quoting from serve safe manual) "Certian bacteria can change into a differant form-called spores- to protect themselves when nutriants are not available." Spores therefore aren't germain to this conversation.

But don't hold out on us, At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why? For that matter, how did people keep meat from making others sick before modern refridgeration? Was it just jerky and saltpork? Perhaps a new thread could be started as this would easily go off topic away from the threaded topic of poor Jovin's scorned ground cow.

Ground beef related food poisioning is usually caused by living Escheria coli bacteria producing shiga toxins in the intestines. I've not read anywhere that e-coli contaminated beef will build up threshold toxin that can't be cooked out but if I'm wrong I'm quite open to correction, cooking should be an art of humilty, just quote me a specific.
As to the ground beef in question, it was frozen in the original package, was still frozen at 23:00 and thawed and bloody at 08:00 the next morning.

If cooked to approved temperature the ground beef would probably be fine. I've had food poisoning as a boy and likely wouldn't gamble over a 4 dollah pack of ground but that's my personal bias. I tend to be a bit fastidious about time/temperature contamination and handwashing, just not hysterical. Stay safe, eat seasonally and wash your hands.

 

[CasperImproved]

I am certain that many more folks here know more then me. But when it comes to the safety of how long food is safe at X temperature, the right answer to the question is that if you need to ask the question, then the food should be trashed. I say that because you personally (or your consumers) need to deal with the possible out come. My house is 72F at all times. If I left out beef of the fridge (cooked) for 2 hours, I will eat it. If you left chicken out for the same time uncooked (and not frozen) I would put in the trash. The fact of the manner is that you need to weigh the risk vs. the cost. If I wanted for a pot-luck to make a turkey for a party, I would certainly spend the right time recommendations for the actual defrost (and method). If I want to risk the guest(s) health, I would do as I like. The reality is if you keep ""X" type of meat out in a temperature that is not recommended for that meat for "X" time, that is a risk you have personally mad a decision about. I will say that I have never risked the health of others I cook for. But for a fact point, I have risked my own life with the food I cook myself. If it smells okay, has no visible issues I might eat it my-self. But if I had question about it's "possible" bad health issues, I certainly would NOT serve it to others. If you would like, send me an email and I would be happy to discuss as I had my own personal bought of food poisoning that makes me REALLY careful about decisions on this topic. Casper

 

[Andy M.]

First, please don't paraphrase me if you wish to debate specific points. Differances in opinion can only be productive when respectful dialog is maintained. I did answer your question vis-a-vis beef, I said Rancidity and off flavors from fat oxidation are an issue more than bacteria growth or other pathogens.

Suddenly the discussion's shifted to chicken and spores. (Also quoting from serve safe manual) "Certian bacteria can change into a differant form-called spores- to protect themselves when nutriants are not available." Spores therefore aren't germain to this conversation.

But don't hold out on us, At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why? For that matter, how did people keep meat from making others sick before modern refridgeration? Was it just jerky and saltpork? Perhaps a new thread could be started as this would easily go off topic away from the threaded topic of poor Jovin's scorned ground cow.

Ground beef related food poisioning is usually caused by living Escheria coli bacteria producing shiga toxins in the intestines. I've not read anywhere that e-coli contaminated beef will build up threshold toxin that can't be cooked out but if I'm wrong I'm quite open to correction, cooking should be an art of humilty, just quote me a specific.
As to the ground beef in question, it was frozen in the original package, was still frozen at 23:00 and thawed and bloody at 08:00 the next morning.

If cooked to approved temperature the ground beef would probably be fine. I've had food poisoning as a boy and likely wouldn't gamble over a 4 dollah pack of ground but that's my personal bias. I tend to be a bit fastidious about time/temperature contamination and handwashing, just not hysterical. Stay safe, eat seasonally and wash your hands.

The range of temperatures fro 40F to 140F is called the danger zone for a reason. Bacteria present in meats (all of them) multiply at a greatly increased rate in the DZ. Those bacteria produce toxins. When cooked, the bacteria are killed and the toxins remain.

I have never read a food reference that contradicted this information.

I you do not operate outside the danger zone in your kitchen, please post the name of the restaurant you work at.

 

[Michael Cook]

Those bacteria produce toxins. When cooked, the bacteria are killed and the toxins remain.

I have never read a food reference that contradicted this information.

I you do not operate outside the danger zone in your kitchen, please post the name of the restaurant you work at.

What information? Which bacteria and what toxins? E coli? Is that true? From what sources are you referancing? I'm not trying to advocate unwise food handling in any way, I'm so over conditioned from years of hand washing and gigging twenty-somethings on it at work that I'll catch myself washing my hands after touching my face or hair when eating alone at home (nice ad hominem attack about the temperature logs at work by the way, have you stopped beating your wife?) but are you stating that whatever E. coli may be infecting this ground beef in question after being cooked through to 165 degrees, 74 celcius for more than 15 seconds is going be able to survive long enough to make it to your intestine and then start producing the shiga toxin or is there some other wierd toxin E. coli produces on the surface of the food 'cause I simply haven't heard of it and it's not getting taught.

The fact is most cases of food poisonings don't come from ickys in the food. most cases of food poisonings come from the ickys that come out of food handlers bums and belt regions when they go to the bathroom and fail to use proper hand washing technique or don't wash their hands at all and then procede to cross contaminate all over the place.

Or are you debating specifics with platitudes? Because I have no interest discussing biology with christian fundamentalists, I'm here to get tips on firming up my egg foams.

 

[lindatooo]

I agree with all of the precautions mentioned....but...

I also remember that throughout my childhood I "taste tested" the raw meatballs that dad made. I never got sick from them.

Makes me wonder what's different about today's food!

 

[Michael Cook]

...The range of temperatures fro 40F to 140F is called the danger zone...

In point of fact, the food danger zone has recently been changed by government to 41F to 140 F