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Old 04-13-2007, 04:46 PM   #51
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But you still haven't answered my question about why you need to refigerate meat at all if you are going to cook it. Going by your logic and science (that cooking kills all the bad stuff, which it doesn't) you wouldn't need it. Yet even your Safe Serve Manual says to refrigerate until ready to prepare.

At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why?

I am quoting from the Safe Serve Manual "Cooking food to the minimum required internal temperature reduces the number of food borne organisms to safe levels, but does not destroy spores and toxins they create."

The reason why it is unsafe to consume meat that has been held in the danger zone for too long, as in this case, even if it's cooked, is because while it sits there, the bacteria are multiplying at an enormous rate. The bacteria gives off toxins and spores which can make you very sick. The toxins and spores are often heat resistant. Thus, even if the bacteria is killed, the toxins they have left behind have infected the food and can cause food poisoning.
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:27 PM   #52
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To answer the original question, the meat is undoubtedly safe to cook.

Now, eating it is a completely different story!
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:13 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyema
But you still haven't answered my question about why you need to refigerate meat at all if you are going to cook it. Going by your logic and science (that cooking kills all the bad stuff, which it doesn't) you wouldn't need it. Yet even your Safe Serve Manual says to refrigerate until ready to prepare.

At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why?

I am quoting from the Safe Serve Manual "Cooking food to the minimum required internal temperature reduces the number of food borne organisms to safe levels, but does not destroy spores and toxins they create."

The reason why it is unsafe to consume meat that has been held in the danger zone for too long, as in this case, even if it's cooked, is because while it sits there, the bacteria are multiplying at an enormous rate. The bacteria gives off toxins and spores which can make you very sick. The toxins and spores are often heat resistant. Thus, even if the bacteria is killed, the toxins they have left behind have infected the food and can cause food poisoning.
First, please don't paraphrase me if you wish to debate specific points. Differances in opinion can only be productive when respectful dialog is maintained. I did answer your question vis-a-vis beef, I said Rancidity and off flavors from fat oxidation are an issue more than bacteria growth or other pathogens.

Suddenly the discussion's shifted to chicken and spores. (Also quoting from serve safe manual) "Certian bacteria can change into a differant form-called spores- to protect themselves when nutriants are not available." Spores therefore aren't germain to this conversation.

But don't hold out on us, At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why? For that matter, how did people keep meat from making others sick before modern refridgeration? Was it just jerky and saltpork? Perhaps a new thread could be started as this would easily go off topic away from the threaded topic of poor Jovin's scorned ground cow.

Ground beef related food poisioning is usually caused by living Escheria coli bacteria producing shiga toxins in the intestines. I've not read anywhere that e-coli contaminated beef will build up threshold toxin that can't be cooked out but if I'm wrong I'm quite open to correction, cooking should be an art of humilty, just quote me a specific.
As to the ground beef in question, it was frozen in the original package, was still frozen at 23:00 and thawed and bloody at 08:00 the next morning.

If cooked to approved temperature the ground beef would probably be fine. I've had food poisoning as a boy and likely wouldn't gamble over a 4 dollah pack of ground but that's my personal bias. I tend to be a bit fastidious about time/temperature contamination and handwashing, just not hysterical. Stay safe, eat seasonally and wash your hands.
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:57 PM   #54
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I am certain that many more folks here know more then me. But when it comes to the safety of how long food is safe at X temperature, the right answer to the question is that if you need to ask the question, then the food should be trashed. I say that because you personally (or your consumers) need to deal with the possible out come. My house is 72F at all times. If I left out beef of the fridge (cooked) for 2 hours, I will eat it. If you left chicken out for the same time uncooked (and not frozen) I would put in the trash. The fact of the manner is that you need to weigh the risk vs. the cost. If I wanted for a pot-luck to make a turkey for a party, I would certainly spend the right time recommendations for the actual defrost (and method). If I want to risk the guest(s) health, I would do as I like. The reality is if you keep ""X" type of meat out in a temperature that is not recommended for that meat for "X" time, that is a risk you have personally mad a decision about. I will say that I have never risked the health of others I cook for. But for a fact point, I have risked my own life with the food I cook myself. If it smells okay, has no visible issues I might eat it my-self. But if I had question about it's "possible" bad health issues, I certainly would NOT serve it to others. If you would like, send me an email and I would be happy to discuss as I had my own personal bought of food poisoning that makes me REALLY careful about decisions on this topic. Casper
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:22 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Cook
First, please don't paraphrase me if you wish to debate specific points. Differances in opinion can only be productive when respectful dialog is maintained. I did answer your question vis-a-vis beef, I said Rancidity and off flavors from fat oxidation are an issue more than bacteria growth or other pathogens.

Suddenly the discussion's shifted to chicken and spores. (Also quoting from serve safe manual) "Certian bacteria can change into a differant form-called spores- to protect themselves when nutriants are not available." Spores therefore aren't germain to this conversation.

But don't hold out on us, At what point is, say, chicken, left unrefrigerated unsafe to cook and why? For that matter, how did people keep meat from making others sick before modern refridgeration? Was it just jerky and saltpork? Perhaps a new thread could be started as this would easily go off topic away from the threaded topic of poor Jovin's scorned ground cow.

Ground beef related food poisioning is usually caused by living Escheria coli bacteria producing shiga toxins in the intestines. I've not read anywhere that e-coli contaminated beef will build up threshold toxin that can't be cooked out but if I'm wrong I'm quite open to correction, cooking should be an art of humilty, just quote me a specific.
As to the ground beef in question, it was frozen in the original package, was still frozen at 23:00 and thawed and bloody at 08:00 the next morning.

If cooked to approved temperature the ground beef would probably be fine. I've had food poisoning as a boy and likely wouldn't gamble over a 4 dollah pack of ground but that's my personal bias. I tend to be a bit fastidious about time/temperature contamination and handwashing, just not hysterical. Stay safe, eat seasonally and wash your hands.

The range of temperatures fro 40F to 140F is called the danger zone for a reason. Bacteria present in meats (all of them) multiply at a greatly increased rate in the DZ. Those bacteria produce toxins. When cooked, the bacteria are killed and the toxins remain.

I have never read a food reference that contradicted this information.

I you do not operate outside the danger zone in your kitchen, please post the name of the restaurant you work at.
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Old 04-14-2007, 01:02 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
Those bacteria produce toxins. When cooked, the bacteria are killed and the toxins remain.

I have never read a food reference that contradicted this information.

I you do not operate outside the danger zone in your kitchen, please post the name of the restaurant you work at.
What information? Which bacteria and what toxins? E coli? Is that true? From what sources are you referancing? I'm not trying to advocate unwise food handling in any way, I'm so over conditioned from years of hand washing and gigging twenty-somethings on it at work that I'll catch myself washing my hands after touching my face or hair when eating alone at home (nice ad hominem attack about the temperature logs at work by the way, have you stopped beating your wife?) but are you stating that whatever E. coli may be infecting this ground beef in question after being cooked through to 165 degrees, 74 celcius for more than 15 seconds is going be able to survive long enough to make it to your intestine and then start producing the shiga toxin or is there some other wierd toxin E. coli produces on the surface of the food 'cause I simply haven't heard of it and it's not getting taught.

The fact is most cases of food poisonings don't come from ickys in the food. most cases of food poisonings come from the ickys that come out of food handlers bums and belt regions when they go to the bathroom and fail to use proper hand washing technique or don't wash their hands at all and then procede to cross contaminate all over the place.

Or are you debating specifics with platitudes? Because I have no interest discussing biology with christian fundamentalists, I'm here to get tips on firming up my egg foams.
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Old 04-14-2007, 01:15 AM   #57
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I agree with all of the precautions mentioned....but...

I also remember that throughout my childhood I "taste tested" the raw meatballs that dad made. I never got sick from them.

Makes me wonder what's different about today's food!
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Old 04-14-2007, 11:15 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
...The range of temperatures fro 40F to 140F is called the danger zone...
In point of fact, the food danger zone has recently been changed by government to 41F to 140 F
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