Killing surface germs on meat

[pacanis]

Regardless of how long dogs and cats have been pets and not working animals, commercial dog foods didn't gain in popularity until the 1940's-50's. So they have not been around all that long. At least in great use.

 

[taxlady]

If the food is not spoiled, and probably even if it slightly were, just feed it to them raw and don't worry about it.
Your vet will not know the answer as he probably sells expensive prescription diets that would better be "the answer"... for him $$$
Any type of cooking will make the food harder for he pet to digest and lose nutritional value (just like for us), but it's the digestion part that bothers me. You are defeating one of the main reasons for feeding a raw diet to do any type of cooking.

This is exactly why I am asking. I have gotten into arguments about this with two vets' nutritionists. They are convinced that I will put my cat at incredible risk if I feed him raw food. I am a little concerned because he is 18 y.o. I would like to have some scientific info to tell these nutritionists. The vets sell a book with cat food recipes. They are all cooked and contain vegis, fruit, and grain. Yes, cats get a bit of vegis, fruit, and grain in the digestive tracts of their prey, but it comes with the appropriate digestive enzymes. Those are enzymes that cats don't produce. The proportion of non-animal ingredients in the book's recipes is also a lot higher than what a cat would get in prey.

This subject came up again yesterday. Obviously the person was closed-minded on the subject. She insisted that taurine, as a supplement, is almost impossible to find. I told her that I had found it at Popeye's, a store that sells supplements for humans. Apparently weight lifters take it. She repeated how hard it is to find taurine. She also kept on about how horrible it is to see an animal with a bacterial infection. She doesn't believe that dipping the food in boiling water would kill the germs. I should have asked if she eats all her meat well done.

This vet uses a compromise between raw and cooked: Making Cat Food by Lisa A. Pierson, DVM :: homemade cat food, cat food recipes. She bakes chicken a bit. I tried that, but I have no idea how long to bake it. She used to dip in boiling water, but believes that one loses too many nutrients. But, she doesn't really cook for herself, so I don't think she has ever heard of making your own chicken stock, which I would add to the food instead of the water in the recipe. Yes, it would make the skin less digestible, but at least the cat would be getting mostly raw food.

 

[taxlady]

I use bleach.

Please tell me more.

 

[cave76]

Taxlady said about her veterinarian:

"The vets sell a book with cat food recipes. They are all cooked and contain vegis, fruit, and grain."

There's your answer in Bold letters. Bazinga! Cui Bono.

 

[pacanis]

Taurine is found naturally in a lot of proteins. Unfortunately, lamb isn't one of them. That's why in the past 4-5 years you have seen taurine beinging added to lamb and rice foods. Taurine is needed to keep the heart strong.
I don't know a lot about cats I will admit. Other than they are true carnivores. The veggies and grains thing is throwing me.
But being a realist I just want to say you are talking about an 18 yo cat. Really, I wouldn't change whatever it is you've been doing.

 

[taxlady]

Taxlady said about her veterinarian:

"The vets sell a book with cat food recipes. They are all cooked and contain vegis, fruit, and grain."

There's your answer in Bold letters. Bazinga! Cui Bono.

I don't understand what point you are making. (And what language is "Cui Bono", and what does it mean? Google translate was no help.)

 

[cave76]

On the ranch where I used to live I 'rescued' a feral cat that became my shadow and lap companion.

When I first saw her----- her coat was as glossy black as black can be. She was well muscled and fit. (We took her to the vet after I tamed her just to check and to get shots.)

She was a great mouser and evidently had lived on mice and birds for quite a while (years) without the benefit of dipping in boiling water. I'm sure the bones and feathers went down the same gullet.

 

[Rocket_J_Dawg]

This is exactly why I am asking. I have gotten into arguments about this with two vets' nutritionists. They are convinced that I will put my cat at incredible risk if I feed him raw food. I am a little concerned because he is 18 y.o. I would like to have some scientific info to tell these nutritionists. The vets sell a book with cat food recipes. They are all cooked and contain vegis, fruit, and grain. Yes, cats get a bit of vegis, fruit, and grain in the digestive tracts of their prey, but it comes with the appropriate digestive enzymes. Those are enzymes that cats don't produce. The proportion of non-animal ingredients in the book's recipes is also a lot higher than what a cat would get in prey.

This subject came up again yesterday. Obviously the person was closed-minded on the subject. She insisted that taurine, as a supplement, is almost impossible to find. I told her that I had found it at Popeye's, a store that sells supplements for humans. Apparently weight lifters take it. She repeated how hard it is to find taurine. She also kept on about how horrible it is to see an animal with a bacterial infection. She doesn't believe that dipping the food in boiling water would kill the germs. I should have asked if she eats all her meat well done.

This vet uses a compromise between raw and cooked: Making Cat Food by Lisa A. Pierson, DVM :: homemade cat food, cat food recipes. She bakes chicken a bit. I tried that, but I have no idea how long to bake it. She used to dip in boiling water, but believes that one loses too many nutrients. But, she doesn't really cook for herself, so I don't think she has ever heard of making your own chicken stock, which I would add to the food instead of the water in the recipe. Yes, it would make the skin less digestible, but at least the cat would be getting mostly raw food.

Taxy, this should help.
Raw food diets in companion animals: A critical review

 

[cave76]

I don't understand what point you are making. (And what language is "Cui Bono", and what does it mean? Google translate was no help.)

Sorry---- Cui Bono is Latin and is used to mean 'for whose benefit?'

My point is if someone makes money from selling a book about cooking pet food then I have to look at it closely and skeptically.

The author may truly believe she's correct, however. That would be more believable if she offered citations (references) to scientific articles that prove her point/premise.

I've spent many a year researching medical articles by researchers/doctors etc and testimonials by patients. Human, not pets. I've learned to be skeptical.

I hope that answers your questions.

(Oh, and that 'bazinga'? Just a nod to Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory.)

 

[cave76]

Here are a few more. (Look on the right hand side of the screen for the others.)

Focus on nutrition: Home-prepared di... [Compend Contin Educ Vet. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[taxlady]

Taurine is found naturally in a lot of proteins. Unfortunately, lamb isn't one of them. That's why in the past 4-5 years you have seen taurine beinging added to lamb and rice foods. Taurine is needed to keep the heart strong.
I don't know a lot about cats I will admit. Other than they are true carnivores. The veggies and grains thing is throwing me.
But being a realist I just want to say you are talking about an 18 yo cat. Really, I wouldn't change whatever it is you've been doing.

Taurine is "killed" by heat. It is found in good quantities in organ meat. Cats cannot produce it, which is why it is added to commercial cat food.

I'm not happy with ingredients like "chicken meal" and "chicken by-products". Those could be okay, but most of the pet food industry uses stuff that I wouldn't want. And "animal digest", which many claim is made from suspect carcasses.

Plus, the cost of the "good" cat food is a factor and I hate paying sales tax on food for the cat. Food for humans isn't taxed here. I can't really just keep feeding him what I used to feed him. He used to get kibble, but won't eat that now. That's actually why I brought him to the vet. Yes, his teeth are in terrible condition. But, the vet doesn't want to deal with that until he is in really good health. I'll find out how his thyroid levels are now, sometime today. The vet also felt some kind of lump, but it might be fecal matter in transit. That will have to be checked in a follow up visit.

I have also read about kibble and I don't want to feed him that any more.

 

[cave76]

Completely off topic, sort of, but I've watched that TV show " Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern" a few times and one country's YUCK is another country's YUM.

I guess if I were starving I'd have to reconsider what's yucky and what's yummy.

 

[pacanis]

Taxy, chicken meal is a good thing. It is better than simply saying chicken.
Anything with the word "meal" after it means the protein has been processed into a useable form. If chicken meal is listed first, second or third it has a lot of useable protein in the food. If it lists a couple ingredients with meal in the description; as in fish meal, chicken meal, all the better.
If it simply says "chicken", that is the wet weight before being processed. A food that lists chicken first, second or third really should list it in the seven or eight area, as by the time it was processed that's where it fell to.
But yes, by products = bad. So does "animal fat" "or poultry" equal bad. You want it to define the animal and the poultry.

 

[taxlady]

Sorry---- Cui Bono is Latin and is used to mean 'for whose benefit?'

My point is if someone makes money from selling a book about cooking pet food then I have to look at it closely and skeptically.

The author may truly believe she's correct, however. That would be more believable if she offered citations (references) to scientific articles that prove her point/premise.

I've spent many a year researching medical articles by researchers/doctors etc and testimonials by patients. Human, not pets. I've learned to be skeptical.

I hope that answers your questions.

(Oh, and that 'bazinga'? Just a nod to Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory.)

It's worse than just profiting from sales of the book. All the recipes in the book include a blend of supplements called "Hilary's Blend" (If I remember right) and that can only be bought from a vet office.

The author of the book is convinced that her recipes are good, because she uses software for pet diets. I suspect it is similar to, or the same as, what the commercial pet food producers use. I have my concerns about that software. She insists that using that software is the only possible way to know that the food is adequate and balanced.

 

[taxlady]

Taxy, chicken meal is a good thing. It is better than simply saying chicken.
Anything with the word "meal" after it means the protein has been processed into a useable form. If chicken meal is listed first, second or third it has a lot of useable protein in the food. If it lists a couple ingredients with meal in the description; as in fish meal, chicken meal, all the better.
If it simply says "chicken", that is the wet weight before being processed. A food that lists chicken first, second or third really should list it in the seven or eight area, as by the time it was processed that's where it fell to.
But yes, by products = bad. So does "animal fat" "or poultry" equal bad. You want it to define the animal and the poultry.

"Meal" can contain beaks, feathers, and other stuff. In principal it might be okay, but the reality...?

 

[CraigC]

Craig, Dogs and cats who are pets have exactly the same digestive system as their wild cousins. It's why they can go back to being feral, cats more quickly, if they are abandoned.

I said nothing about the digestive system per say. They simply don't have the exact same gut flora/fauna. If they started eating carrion they are going to get sick. They may eventually re-aquire the needed gut contents.

 

[taxlady]

Taxy, this should help.
Raw food diets in companion animals: A critical review

Thanks for the link. It was well written. However, it just makes the point that what most people are using as raw food may be nutritionally lacking and full of micro-organisms. There was no indication of what happens when clean, balanced raw food is the only food source for a critter.

The article does make the point that there aren't a lot of research results available.

I think that most of us here at DC are more conscious of food risks than the average person. We know to be careful about cross contamination and the fact that there are micro-organisms on the surface of the meat we buy.

That article just reminds me that I have to be extra careful with raw food and make sure to have good, nutritionally balanced recipes.

 

[taxlady]

I said nothing about the digestive system per say. They simply don't have the exact same gut flora/fauna. If they started eating carrion they are going to get sick. They may eventually re-aquire the needed gut contents.

Agreed.

I don't mean to imply that you thought I was planning on feeding Shreddy carrion, but I'm not.

 

[pacanis]

"Meal" can contain beaks, feathers, and other stuff. In principal it might be okay, but the reality...?

Really? Maybe a low quality food it does.
But then low quality foods don't usually list meal.

 

[pacanis]

I said nothing about the digestive system per say. They simply don't have the exact same gut flora/fauna. If they started eating carrion they are going to get sick. They may eventually re-aquire the needed gut contents.

Well yes, there is a transition with any food change. But they do have the same stomach acids. I'm not sure how that figures with with your flora and fauna.