Local/Sustainable? I want Ethical.

[PrincessFiona60]

We all know that pedaling my bike is NOT good for my health, I have a squeaky elbow now.

 

[Timothy]

I don't think space enough to spread wings and move about, and cleanliness are too much to ask.

To be realistic, it's more than any chicken producer will ever pay to do. They would literally have to tear down thier entire cage area and rebuild it.

None of them will do that, ever. The down time alone would cost them a fortune. The materials, construction and labor would be cost prohibitive.

Your ideas are great "feel good" ideas Kathleen, but that type of system has to be built from the ground up. No existing producer can afford to do the modifications to existing structures.

Seriously, go to a place that actually has the cages you don't like and see what a mammoth and costly undertaking it would be to alter it to a "perfect" process. That cost would initially have to be borne by the owner of the business. No businessperson in their right mind would shut their entire operation down to do that type of overhaul to make a bunch of chickens feel better about their captivity.

I do love animals, but the business side of me keeps me thinking within the realms of reality.

Mods like what you desire, cost money. Where is that money going to come from realistically?

 

[Kathleen]

To be realistic, it's more than any chicken producer will ever pay to do. They would literally have to tear down thier entire cage area and rebuild it.

None of them will do that, ever. The down time alone would cost them a fortune. The materials, construction and labor would be cost prohibitive.

Your ideas are great "feel good" ideas Kathleen, but that type of system has to be built from the ground up. No existing producer can afford to do the modifications to existing structures.

Seriously, go to a place that actually has the cages you don't like and see what a mammoth and costly undertaking it would be to alter it to a "perfect" process. That cost would initially have to be borne by the owner of the business. No businessperson in their right mind would shut their entire operation down to do that type of overhaul to make a bunch of chickens feel better about their captivity.

I do love animals, but the business side of me keeps me thinking within the realms of reality.

Mods like what you desire, cost money. Where is that money going to come from realistically?

I'm going to politely disagree, Timothy. Cleanliness does not require a business cage overhaul. Room to move may simply require them to put a few less birds in each cage and they can design better cages as they expand. Failure to comply with basic laws of hygiene and ethical practices should cause a company to shut down. Selling cheap eggs is one thing. Creating conditions for unsafe food and unnecessarily creating harm to animals is another. When ABC was given a tour of the egg company, the look of the production plant looked MUCH more reasonable - of course, it was a different facility but the same company.

 

[Timothy]

I'm going to politely disagree, Timothy. Cleanliness does not require a business cage overhaul. Room to move may simply require them to put a few less birds in each cage and they can design better cages as they expand. Failure to comply with basic laws of hygiene and ethical practices should cause a company to shut down. Selling cheap eggs is one thing. Creating conditions for unsafe food and unnecessarily creating harm to animals is another. When ABC was given a tour of the egg company, the look of the production plant looked MUCH more reasonable - of course, it was a different facility but the same company.

Fewer birds in each cage means more cages. More cages cost more money. More cleanliness means more labor hours, which in turn means more labor costs. Who is going to pay these costs? The consumer. By paying more for each dozen eggs or each pound of chicken meat. Tell a large restaurant that you are going to charge them 25% more for each flat of eggs and you'll lose a customer. Do it to enough customers and you lose your entire business when you can't sell your product. Its all a money thing. From git to go. Following the laws that are already set isn't optional. If you are aware of a place that has specific exceptions to the law, you need to report them to the appropriate authorities and follow up on them.

I think the reason these place don't follow the laws is that no one really cares enough to make them do so.

I still say it's impossible to kill an animal humanely. How can anyone kill another living creature and make its death humane?

Less than torture, sure. Cruel and unusual killing, sure, that can be changed to a method of killing that is as instantaneous as possible.

To give them a perfect life, they would have to be allowed to live until they died naturally.

I'm all for making it all right for the animals, but ruining businesses in the process isn't the method I would suggest.

 

[Kathleen]

I agree. It's pointless to argue about something that won't be changed.

So to move on to the follow-up topic, again, I must politely disagree that something won't be changed as things have already changed. McDonalds and Target (among others) have dropped the egg company's business - which I am sure cost the company significant amounts of money. ABC did a follow-up story with the egg company who gave them a tour of a different (very clean and humane) facility. As a result, the egg company has thankfully vowed to clean up it's practices in their offending facility. On a less significant scale, the general population, including me, has become more aware and will make their spending changes based on their new awareness: I've always believed in the power of one. It starts with one person, but little changes add up.

 

[PrincessFiona60]

So to move on to the follow-up topic, again, I must politely disagree that something won't be changed as things have already changed. McDonalds and Target (among others) have dropped the egg company's business - which I am sure cost the company significant amounts of money. ABC did a follow-up story with the egg company who gave them a tour of a different (very clean and humane) facility. As a result, the egg company has thankfully vowed to clean up it's practices in their offending facility. On a less significant scale, the general population, including me, has become more aware and will make their spending changes based on their new awareness: I've always believed in the power of one. It starts with one person, but little changes add up.

This is where we make the difference, a dollar at a time. There are more and more people shopping at our Whole Foods type grocery than ever before. All meat and dairy is produced in state at small farms, most within 100 miles of Missoula. It's making it tough to find a good shopping time when the store is slow.

I get a giggle seeing the small locally owned grocer has more cashiers working at a time than the Super Wal-Mart.

 

[Kathleen]

This is where we make the difference, a dollar at a time. There are more and more people shopping at our Whole Foods type grocery than ever before. All meat and dairy is produced in state at small farms, most within 100 miles of Missoula. It's making it tough to find a good shopping time when the store is slow.

I get a giggle seeing the small locally owned grocer has more cashiers working at a time than the Super Wal-Mart.

I like Whole Foods, but they are pretty spendy here. We just had another organic/whole foods chain open locally called Moms Organic Market (MOM). Their prices are awesome. They have a decent selection on grains and canned goods. They do not compare with the huge selection of proteins that Whole Foods has. Still....worth a trip!

Growing up, we had a Mom and Pop grocery a block away. They had the best butcher shop and cut their own meats. Also, they would keep bottles of soda in the meat locker. The soda's were perfect as they were cold enough to have a few little ice pieces, but never froze beyond that. A local farmer brought them produce in the summertime when it was available.

 

[PrincessFiona60]

I did say Whole Foods Type store. They are locally owned, I am careful though, sometimes they are more expensive on some items and sometimes cheaper. Their bulk food section cannot be beat, but often 10 cents higher per pound than the Regional grocers. Have to watch it! I do a lot of pre-shopping to decide where I'll be heading for most of my purchases.

 

[Timothy]

So to move on to the follow-up topic, again, I must politely disagree that something won't be changed as things have already changed. McDonalds and Target (among others) have dropped the egg company's business - which I am sure cost the company significant amounts of money. ABC did a follow-up story with the egg company who gave them a tour of a different (very clean and humane) facility. As a result, the egg company has thankfully vowed to clean up it's practices in their offending facility. On a less significant scale, the general population, including me, has become more aware and will make their spending changes based on their new awareness: I've always believed in the power of one. It starts with one person, but little changes add up.

I agreed then and I still do. Kathleen, you and I see completely different methods to the same end result and neither of us will budge on the way we perceive things to be, so there is nothing to gain by arguing the points.

Good luck to you in reaching your goals.

May you have a comfortable journey to your success.

 

[CWS4322]

Two friends from high school started a self-sustainable farm in 2008. I check the blog regularly. Many of the things they can do, we could never do in Ontario. And, I'm so jealous of their high-tunnel greenhouse!

Squash Blossom Farm: Thanks Given

 

[bakechef]

The idea of buying locally is overwhelming to some. Lots of people think that they have to do this 100% or they fail their mission.

It's easy to buy locally to SUPPLEMENT your regular groceries. I find that starting small tends to snowball into me seeking more local, high quality foods. Will I ever be 100% local? Not likely. But I can funnel more of my $ into the local economy, which benefits local farmers and businesses, and benefits me with more wholesome foods.

 

[CWS4322]

In my house that isn't going to happen. Yes, in olden days people did that, but remember, they almost always had a "wife" who stayed home and made sure there was food on the shelf and a clean house, 24/7.

I read in one of my many cookbooks, that until the 1940s, the average "housewife" spent 3 hours a day cooking. I know my grandmother did--she baked all the bread, pies, made almost everything from scratch, had a HUGE veggie garden, kept chickens, etc. She did not work outside of the home (when would she have had time?). I do many of the same things my grandmother did. I have a modern washing machine (not a wringer washer) and I work--but I work from home, so I can have a batch of stock in the oven while I'm working, bread rising (I cheat, I use a bread machine to make the dough), etc. But I could not do this if I had to commute 2 hours/day. Because of time-of-use power rates, I do most of my "big cooking" on weekends now, and reheat stuff through the week. And, I have "gadgets" that help with the house work--an IRoomba vacuum, a Vac-n-Steam mop, and, most recently, the DISHWASHER.

 

[Kathleen]

The idea of buying locally is overwhelming to some. Lots of people think that they have to do this 100% or they fail their mission.

It's easy to buy locally to SUPPLEMENT your regular groceries. I find that starting small tends to snowball into me seeking more local, high quality foods. Will I ever be 100% local? Not likely. But I can funnel more of my $ into the local economy, which benefits local farmers and businesses, and benefits me with more wholesome foods.

That describes me exactly, bakechef. I'll never be 100% local, and I supplement my regular groceries if needed. Like you, this has put me on the path to seek more local, high quality foods, which has been fun. Though it is not always feasible, I try to use sustainable products - but every little bit helps.

A side note: I'm always happy to see changes no matter how small. Seven years ago, my school, which has approximately 2500 people when students and faculty are counted, had no recycling program. Last year, we had to add a second recycling dumpster and had to request daily pick-up rather than three times per week. Small change, but it's great to see. I hear that one of our student clubs is making inquiries to whether we can have solar panels added to the top of our 400K sq foot building. That would be awesome, if they can do it.

I started this thread, because that video made me realize that I had been solely focusing on "sustainable and local." Food contamination outbreaks are becoming more of a concern to me, and I've always wondered whether these outbreaks have always been there or if they were a more recent concern (and, if so, why now.) I've noticed that many unethical practices tend to go hand-in-hand with unhygienic activities. I think my new learning is that, if I see it as unethical, I'll do without it whereas if it is not local, I'll pick it up at the supermarket. You know?

I read in one of my many cookbooks, that until the 1940s, the average "housewife" spent 3 hours a day cooking. I know my grandmother did--she baked all the bread, pies, made almost everything from scratch, had a HUGE veggie garden, kept chickens, etc. She did not work outside of the home (when would she have had time?). I do many of the same things my grandmother did. I have a modern washing machine (not a wringer washer) and I work--but I work from home, so I can have a batch of stock in the oven while I'm working, bread rising (I cheat, I use a bread machine to make the dough), etc. But I could not do this if I had to commute 2 hours/day. Because of time-of-use power rates, I do most of my "big cooking" on weekends now, and reheat stuff through the week. And, I have "gadgets" that help with the house work--an IRoomba vacuum, a Vac-n-Steam mop, and, most recently, the DISHWASHER.

What a fun and awesome blog, CWS. Thanks for sharing it. When I was in high school, we were all trying to escape the farms. How little we knew!

One of my grandmothers was like that. I don't know how she did all that she did. I'll bet yours also made clothing and braided rugs too! And they had time to "visit" and got to bed at "a reasonable hour." I really don't know how they did it.

It reminds me of a joke. A new bride proudly gave her mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother a tour of her new home. Admiring all of her kitchen items, her great-grandmother asked, "Which of these items do you feel that you simply could not do without?"

The bride replied, "Hmm. I don't think I could do without my espresso maker."

Her mother chimed in, "Dear, you may wish to rethink. How could you do without your microwave?"

Grandma said, "You better keep the stove!"

Great-Grandma said, "I don't know how any of you would get by without indoor plumbing."

 

[CWS4322]

I love the Squash Blossom Farm blog--I check it to see what's going on with the high tunnel--and just life on the farm.

Yup--grandma made beautiful braided rugs too. We didn't have indoor plumbing at the cabin--and she cooked out there on a woodstove....you know you are old when...

 

[bakechef]

That describes me exactly, bakechef. I'll never be 100% local, and I supplement my regular groceries if needed. Like you, this has put me on the path to seek more local, high quality foods, which has been fun. Though it is not always feasible, I try to use sustainable products - but every little bit helps.

When I had to bake 32 loaves of pumpkin bread and 2 cheesecakes, I had to get my eggs from the grocery store because there was no time to get to the farmer's market, I didn't fret too much, sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

I get our eggs for $4 a dozen at the farmer's market from a farm that raises meat and sells eggs. It's nice to know where our food is coming from and how it is raised!

I'm really tempted to join their CSA for beef. We just may do it when we level out from all the expense incurred from the many trips to see my dad when he was ill and his funeral.

 

[spork]

I started this thread, because that video made me realize that I had been solely focusing on "sustainable and local." Food contamination outbreaks are becoming more of a concern to me, and I've always wondered whether these outbreaks have always been there or if they were a more recent concern (and, if so, why now.) I've noticed that many unethical practices tend to go hand-in-hand with unhygienic activities. I think my new learning is that, if I see it as unethical, I'll do without it whereas if it is not local, I'll pick it up at the supermarket. You know?

To quote Claire, ethics is murky. I personally think it can't be applied to any entity other than an individual human being. A corporation, even a collective of people, cannot be ethical (it's unjustified for example to accuse a crowd of the 'bystander effect' as being immoral). I prefer "responsible."

I do think that there is a correlation between "responsible" and "local." If I get sick from an egg provided by a local farm, they will feel the sense of responsibility (if only because locally, what goes around comes around). Does the megaeggfarm feel responsible for the kids they may have directly killed with unsanitary pens in the latest outbreak of salmonella? Probably not, except maybe as a settlement cost liability. And that's mainly because of distance, not because the business is evil, or overly motivated by profit/percentages.

I think it's perfectly ethical to tenderize DC's coders with a flogging before roasting them on a spit. Others may disagree.

 

[Kathleen]

When I had to bake 32 loaves of pumpkin bread and 2 cheesecakes, I had to get my eggs from the grocery store because there was no time to get to the farmer's market, I didn't fret too much, sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

I get our eggs for $4 a dozen at the farmer's market from a farm that raises meat and sells eggs. It's nice to know where our food is coming from and how it is raised!

I'm really tempted to join their CSA for beef. We just may do it when we level out from all the expense incurred from the many trips to see my dad when he was ill and his funeral.

That's a lot of pumpkin bread! I really think I'm going to invest in a freezer, and an electrician to put in a socket that would work. (My house is pretty old and only had 30 amps of electric when I moved in. I always need to split circuits when I need something that requires a bit of electric.) Like you, I would love to buy proteins from sources that I would know where and how it is raised.

Also, I'm very sorry to hear that you lost your father.

To quote Claire, ethics is murky. I personally think it can't be applied to any entity other than an individual human being. A corporation, even a collective of people, cannot be ethical (it's unjustified for example to accuse a crowd of the 'bystander effect' as being immoral). I prefer "responsible."

I do think that there is a correlation between "responsible" and "local." If I get sick from an egg provided by a local farm, they will feel the sense of responsibility (if only because locally, what goes around comes around). Does the megaeggfarm feel responsible for the kids they may have directly killed with unsanitary pens in the latest outbreak of salmonella? Probably not, except maybe as a settlement cost liability. And that's mainly because of distance, not because the business is evil, or overly motivated by profit/percentages.

I think it's perfectly ethical to tenderize DC's coders with a flogging before roasting them on a spit. Others may disagree.

I love your word "responsible." It is a much better term, I think. And I agree that there is a correlation between responsible and local.

 

[bakechef]

That's a lot of pumpkin bread! I really think I'm going to invest in a freezer, and an electrician to put in a socket that would work. (My house is pretty old and only had 30 amps of electric when I moved in. I always need to split circuits when I need something that requires a bit of electric.) Like you, I would love to buy proteins from sources that I would know where and how it is raised.

Also, I'm very sorry to hear that you lost your father.

Thanks. I had a wonderful 37 years with him and I will be forever grateful that I had such a close bond with my dad, something that I learned to never take for granted.

 

[Bolas De Fraile]

3 yrs ago when we moved back to the family home to look after my Mum, I decide to recreate the veg patch which had been under grass for 30 yrs, probably because we had never done this before we grew to much of a number of thing and not enough of other. We then got together with three neighbours and swapped.We are now a group of 10, the latest member is a local farmer who I went to school with who rears Dexter beef as a hobby. We pay cost price for this amazing beef. I also agreed to make a christmas cake, pud and mince pies that will be used as a discount off my next purchase.My wife also runs a ring around, so the three turkeys that she stalked in waitrose went to the first two people who answered the phone.
My wife has a Volvo estate, we drive a 90 mile round trip once a month(we split the transport costs) at 03.30am to the huge wholesale fish/fruit market in Manchester with the group shopping list.The fish and seafood is the freshest you can buy and cost about 50% of retail.

 

[Timothy]

So to move on to the follow-up topic, again, I must politely disagree that something won't be changed as things have already changed. McDonalds and Target (among others) have dropped the egg company's business - which I am sure cost the company significant amounts of money. ABC did a follow-up story with the egg company who gave them a tour of a different (very clean and humane) facility. As a result, the egg company has thankfully vowed to clean up it's practices in their offending facility. On a less significant scale, the general population, including me, has become more aware and will make their spending changes based on their new awareness: I've always believed in the power of one. It starts with one person, but little changes add up.

I would love to know the source of your information about McDonald's and Target breaking their contracts with this egg company. Today, so much is "net-lore" that really never happened, and is quoted enough to make it sound as if it really did happen.

Cite please? And exactly what egg company was this? I would like to look up more information about this incident.