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Old 01-30-2008, 02:26 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by YT2095 View Post
if you have a Cobalt 60 source I`m sure it`ll be fine for 6 months left at room temp, the problem is the idea of Irradiation scares the ignorant sheeple. so you`re somewhat forced to put up with the "next best" and that`s pasteurisation, but then sometimes not even That is done and you get what you get and have to eat it NOW(ish).

but it`s all down to Moisture, and then Exposure to airborne "materials" that can breed.

do you wonder where Yeast comes from for making the 1`st beers and breads?
it`s in the AIR! :)
YT:

Pathogenic organisms in food, for the most part, are not airborne. The ones that are cause colds or flu from coughing, but not food borne illnesses.

Food borne illness comes from food that is contaminated with bacteria usually from animal wastes or human waste through the contamination from bad hand washing practices.

Airborne bacteria will cause spoilage very quickly, at higher temperatures than 40 degrees.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:10 PM   #52
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Callisto:
Did you read the link? From memory, they said something like 76 million people get food poisoning each year. Isn't that like 1 in 4 people in the US? And 300,000 hospitalized each year?

All I'm saying is that folks should think about it before they make decisions that may effect someone else's health. How many of those 76 million people were actually the ones that prepared the food? Logic would say not a high number.
About three sentences and dismissed it as more bias opinion. I find most things to be slanted and bias one way or another. People in Europe and China live longer than Americans and they don't sanitize every little aspect of their life.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:25 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Callisto in NC View Post
People in Europe and China live longer than Americans and they don't sanitize every little aspect of their life.
I am not sure where you are getting that info. According to this chart put out by the CIA World Factbook, China has a lower life expectancy than the US.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:40 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozart View Post
YT:

Pathogenic organisms in food, for the most part, are not airborne. The ones that are cause colds or flu from coughing, but not food borne illnesses.

Food borne illness comes from food that is contaminated with bacteria usually from animal wastes or human waste through the contamination from bad hand washing practices.

Airborne bacteria will cause spoilage very quickly, at higher temperatures than 40 degrees.
that`s not strictly correct at all, aerobes and anaerobes do indeed operate differently, however the transmission vectors do overlap somewhat!

you forgot Soil based spores also (think Anthrax).

and All as I stated, require Moisture (else they remain as dormant spores).
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:26 PM   #55
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that`s not strictly correct at all, aerobes and anaerobes do indeed operate differently, however the transmission vectors do overlap somewhat!

you forgot Soil based spores also (think Anthrax).
YT:

Not sure what your statement has to do with what I said. The terms aerobes and anaerobes have nothing to do with being "airborne" or not. They describe the condition (with air, aerobes or without air, anaerobes) that micro-organisms thrive in. For example, the bacteria that causes botulism is an anaerobe, which is why it is associated with canned foods that are anoxic.

Transmission vectors are live animals and insects that can transmit disease, again having nothing to do with airborne transmission of disease. A good example is a mosquito. Fomites are inanimate objects that can transmit disease. A good example would be a contaminated cutting board.

While anthrax, an extremely rare disease, can be ingested, I have never heard it referred to as a "food borne illness"

Here is what I said: Pathogenic organisms in food, for the most part, are not airborne. The ones that are cause colds or flu from coughing, but not food borne illnesses.

Food borne illness comes from food that is contaminated with bacteria usually from animal wastes or human waste through the contamination from bad hand washing practices.

You or others might find this link regarding disease transmission interesting:

FAQ: Methods of Disease Transmission
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:38 PM   #56
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Being safety conscious is not a phobia.

I'll be the first to agree the U.S., or at least a segment of the U.S. population is going overboard with sanitation. Purified air, hand sanitizer in every room, never leave home without your wipes, these people would have an apoplexy if they caught little Johnny playing with his Tonka in the dirt pile. And all this clean clean clean is creating superbugs.

This is not what we are discussing.

Mozart brought up the very young and the elderly. To that list let me add people with HIV/AIDS, people who have or are getting over an illness, the pregnant, and people on certain medications (did I forget anyone?). These groups are all more susceptible to food born pathogens and toxins. What would give a healthy and active teen to over the hill middle ager an upset stomach or Blatzy shatz could make members of these groups seriously ill or even result in death.

I don't think taking steps to reduce or eliminate this danger at all phobic.

I see it as being socially conscious and responsible.

I have occasions to cook for a club / fraternal organization whose stated purpose is to care for and raise the young and care for the old. The Officers of this club have the Lazzi Fare attitude toward sanitation and best practices I have seen displayed by some in this thread. I won't get into specifics. I asked my sanitation instructor about my liability and exposure once I become certified. He couldn't tell me. Don't want to rock the boat but don't want people , even one person, to suffer. I don't want to get thrown out of the kitchen because things can't be changed from the outside.

But ... after so many 'this is how we have always done it (and you have been dodging bullets without knowing it) and so many 'no one has gotten sick before (not that you know) I hit them with (effectively) "If someone gets sick, or worse, it's on you because you have been informed. And if ANYONE asks me ... I will not lie."


In my own personal cookery I'm afraid I'm no less careful. Drives Wife nuts. Drives me crazy. But then I'm OC with the belief that once someone is made aware of something it's only Logical they should take it into consideration. LOL!!! Read my sig.
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:46 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozart View Post
YT:

Not sure what your statement has to do with what I said. The terms aerobes and anaerobes have nothing to do with being "airborne" or not. They describe the condition (with air, aerobes or without air, anaerobes) that micro-organisms thrive in. For example, the bacteria that causes botulism is an anaerobe, which is why it is associated with canned foods that are anoxic.

Transmission vectors are live animals and insects that can transmit disease, again having nothing to do with airborne transmission of disease. A good example is a mosquito. Fomites are inanimate objects that can transmit disease. A good example would be a contaminated cutting board.

While anthrax, an extremely rare disease, can be ingested, I have never heard it referred to as a "food borne illness"

Here is what I said: Pathogenic organisms in food, for the most part, are not airborne. The ones that are cause colds or flu from coughing, but not food borne illnesses.

Food borne illness comes from food that is contaminated with bacteria usually from animal wastes or human waste through the contamination from bad hand washing practices.

You or others might find this link regarding disease transmission interesting:

FAQ: Methods of Disease Transmission
Interesting that you TOTALLY neglected to put my last sentence in that quote and thereby take the entire post out of context

I gather the fact that I mentioned Moisture on foods as a breeding ground makes your stance (and subsequent argument) somewhat Uncomfortable erring towards untenable even?
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:05 PM   #58
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Transmission vectors are live animals and insects that can transmit disease, again having nothing to do with airborne transmission of disease. A good example is a mosquito.
Better example is cats (or dogs). We have three healthy cats. Consequently anything they can get to is washed twice, once when I'm done and again when I go to use it.


Quote:
While anthrax, an extremely rare disease, can be ingested, I have never heard it referred to as a "food borne illness"
I thought the greater danger of anthrax was from breathing it.

What about Listeriosis?

Heres a thing, I don't worry (much) about what is in the air. If I did I wouldn't put a 50/50 mix of flour and water in a bowl on the deck to make a starter.

I do worry about things like black mold, but I guess that's a different story.


Quote:
Food borne illness comes from food that is contaminated with bacteria usually from animal wastes or human waste through the contamination from bad hand washing practices.
Without a doubt.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:10 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Interesting that you TOTALLY neglected to put my last sentence in that quote and thereby take the entire post out of context

I gather the fact that I mentioned Moisture on foods as a breeding ground makes your stance (and subsequent argument) somewhat Uncomfortable erring towards untenable even?
Quote:
Originally Posted by YT2095 View Post
Interesting that you TOTALLY neglected to put my last sentence in that quote and thereby take the entire post out of context

I gather the fact that I mentioned Moisture on foods as a breeding ground makes your stance (and subsequent argument) somewhat Uncomfortable erring towards untenable even?
Not at all. I'll be happy to comment on your sentence in context.

It is wrong, both in literally and in context with what was being discussed; washing produce.

first, all bacteria and viruses don't need moisture. Many Viruses particularly can live for long periods without moisture. In the link I gave you, a common food borne virus, Norwalk, is a good example.

Second, many bacteria do thrive in moisture, but that is not all they need, they also need food. For example, bacteria do not thrive in deep underground water sources, because there is no organic material for them to feed on.

Third, in context, Washing produce will not produce bacterial growth by introducing moisture in the amount of time it takes to eat it. And most of us that would wash an apple say prior to storage, would also dry it.

And fourth, "else they remain as dormant spores" has no foundation. Very few bacteria even form spores, and the ones that do are not activated by water. If they were, they would have activated in the fields during irrigation and precipitation. They form spores specifically to protect themselves from something in the environment they find hostile. Often, it is air. It takes something outside their normal environment to activate them, like the absence of air in canned food.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:17 PM   #60
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Plenty of Doubt!

those are not the main (or as worded "Usually" ) transit vectors, not until it get to the End-User anyway.

it actually happens LONG before the end user gets his grubby mits on it!
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