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Old 12-04-2007, 11:44 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozart View Post
G
This is my second post on this forum, so I'm a little hesitant to be at odds with the Administrator. I have read through this entire thread, and have a couple of comments.

First, bacteria do not produce toxins, at least not in amounts that make people sick. There is ONE particular bacteria, Staphylococcus, that does produce a toxin that causes food poisoning

I don't think you're right about that. Here's a discussion of bacterial food poisoning and a chart of what bacteria throw off heat resistant spores/toxins.

For example:


Clostridium perfringens C. perfringens is found in soil, dust and the gastrointestinal tracts of animals and man. When food containing a large number of C. perfringens is consumed, the bacteria produce a toxin in the intestinal tract that causes illness. C. perfringens can exist as a heat-resistant spore, so it may survive cooking and grow to large numbers if the cooked food is held between 40 degrees F and 140 degrees F for an extensive time period. Meat and poultry dishes, sauces and gravies are the foods most frequently involved. Hot foods should be served immediately or held above 140 degrees F. When refrigerating large volumes of gravies, meat dishes, etc., divide them into small portions so they will cool rapidly. The food should be reheated to 165o F. prior to serving.



Bacillus cereus B. cereus is found in dust, soil and spices. It can survive normal cooking as a heat-resistant spore, and then produce a large number of cells if the storage temperature is incorrect. Starchy foods such as rice, macaroni and potato dishes are most often involved. The spores may be present on raw foods, and their ability to survive high cooking temperatures requires that cooked foods be served hot or cooled rapidly to prevent the growth of this bacteria.


Bacillus can cause a pretty common form of food poisoning from rice, which is why some people refuse to eat Chinese leftovers. I've had it. From fried rice. Not fun.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:23 PM   #92
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You are correct GotGarlic.

I should have said the only two toxins that are not destroyed easily by heat are Staph and Botulism.

All bacteria produce toxins (byproducts)

From the article you linked: ". It is not the Salmonella bacteria, but its toxins (byproducts), that cause illness. Anything contaminated with Salmonella bacteria, that is not heated to a high enough temperature to destroy the toxins before being eaten, may cause illness."

GB said several times that heat doesn't kill the toxins. I was trying to point out that heat does destabilize most toxins from food borne pathogens.

According to this: ( apparently I haven't been here long enough to post a URL yet)

Salmonella toxins are easily destroyed by cooking.

Mozart
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:43 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyema View Post
I don't think you're right about that.

For example:


Clostridium perfringens C. perfringens is found in soil, dust and the gastrointestinal tracts of animals and man. When food containing a large number of C. perfringens is consumed, the bacteria produce a toxin in the intestinal tract that causes illness. C. perfringens can exist as a heat-resistant spore, so it may survive cooking and grow to large numbers if the cooked food is held between 40 degrees F and 140 degrees F for an extensive time period. Meat and poultry dishes, sauces and gravies are the foods most frequently involved. Hot foods should be served immediately or held above 140 degrees F. When refrigerating large volumes of gravies, meat dishes, etc., divide them into small portions so they will cool rapidly. The food should be reheated to 165o F. prior to serving.



Bacillus cereus B. cereus is found in dust, soil and spices. It can survive normal cooking as a heat-resistant spore, and then produce a large number of cells if the storage temperature is incorrect. Starchy foods such as rice, macaroni and potato dishes are most often involved. The spores may be present on raw foods, and their ability to survive high cooking temperatures requires that cooked foods be served hot or cooled rapidly to prevent the growth of this bacteria.


Bacillus can cause a pretty common form of food poisoning from rice, which is why some people refuse to eat Chinese leftovers. I've had it. From fried rice. Not fun.
Hi Jennyema,

Note that Clostridium p. is a spore that isn't killed by heat. In order to grow in the intestine after and produce the toxin, the food has to be improperly held after cooking, which is what I'm saying is the main cause of food poisonings.

Bacillus cereus is also a spore former. It also multiplies AFTER cooking.

I was discussing toxins that are generated on food before cooking and are not destroyed by the heat of cooking.

The two I know about, and the only common ones I believe, are the two I mentioned. Botulism bacteria also for spores and are the same genus, Clostridium, as your reference above.

There may possibly be more under certain circumstances, but they are not big players in food borne illness to my knowledge.

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Old 12-04-2007, 01:06 PM   #94
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I see now. Thanks.

Probably in a broader sense, the important point is that even if bacteria is killed they may throw off things that can make you sick which are not killed by heat.
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Old 12-04-2007, 01:16 PM   #95
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I guess my error was in using the word toxins.

Regardless, this has become a very fascinating conversation. Thanks for jumping in mozart.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:36 PM   #96
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GB, re. previous seatbelt comment:
"I see it the same way as wearing a seatbelt. I know people who refuse to put them on."

Please tell them that by doing that, their life expectancy decreases significantly.
I would also recommend them to see a therapist (I am not joking), since this device is the best one to help you in case of a vehicle accident.
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Old 12-04-2007, 06:40 PM   #97
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Well we all do stupid things from time to time wysiwyg. One of my friends has a somewhat decent reason for not wearing one though. She was in a very bad accident many years ago and had she been wearing a seatbelt she would have been killed. It was only because she was not wearing it that she is still alive. Now granted, the odds of something like that happening are MUCH smaller than having the opposite be true, but because it happened to her she thinks she is better off without it. I will never be without one though. the way I see it, it is so easy to put it on and it can do so much to save your life.

And that is my point with food safety. It is so easy to practice good food safety that it just seems crazy to me not to take the extra step.
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Old 12-04-2007, 07:31 PM   #98
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I guess my error was in using the word toxins.

Regardless, this has become a very fascinating conversation. Thanks for jumping in mozart.
Thanks, GB

I just want to say before we end this that there is no single commonly cooked food product that is inherently less safe than poultry, and turkey in particular.

This is because rather than cooking a solid muscle, as in a beef roast or ham, your are cooking the whole carcass, including the gut cavity that not only is far more likely to be contaminated in the first place, but is the last place to reach the sufficient temperature to render it safe.

Turkey is the worst simply because of it's size and the length of time it takes to "get out of the danger zone".

However, I think there is a misconception here that the high side of the danger zone is the proper temperature to cook foods (140 degrees) to be safe and that that differers somehow from the temperature it takes to be "done".

Poultry is not safe at 145 degrees even though it is out of the danger zone. Yes, there will be no more bacteria forming at that temperature, but it may not sufficient to kill the bacteria already present or destabilize the toxins from say Salmonella.

"safe " temperatures do migrate around from jurisdiction to jurisdiction ( for example 42 degrees is often given as the low temp in many states) however, this list seems fairly reasonable to me and I'm sure all these limits have some safety factor built in ( thermometers are notoriously inaccurate and asking them to be within 1 degree is a fairy tale):

<LI type=square>Poultry and Stuffing: 165 F <LI type=square>Pork: 145 F <LI type=square>Beef, Lamb and Seafood: 145 F <LI type=square>Rare Beef: 130 F <LI type=square>Hamburger (ground beef): 155 F

Notice the difference between beef and hamburger. This is because in a beef roast, only the outside layer will contain significant bacteria. Hamburger has much more surface area exposed to contamination in processing and handling, so the inside is just as likely to be contaminated as the outside.
The point here is that the outside ( the potentially contaminated part) of the roast will easily reach 155 prior to the inside reaching 145 but a burger needs to hit at least 155 all the way through.

Turkey in a Crockpot? Never. You might as well take it to the lab and put it in an incubator.

I vote we make a stand and make prime rib the meat of choice on Thanksgiving Then our discussions will be around whether sour cream or heavy cream makes for better horseradish sauce.

Mozart
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Old 12-04-2007, 09:35 PM   #99
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GB,
I've been working with occupant restraints and vehicle interiors for more than 25 years.
Honest, this is the first time I heard this.
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Old 12-04-2007, 09:43 PM   #100
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There have been a couple of reported cases in Australia too where the person would have been seriously injured or killed if they had been wearing a seatbelt. But they are rare. DUI, speed and no seatbelt are the three biggest killers on our roads. The rate for (no) seatbelt deaths is greater in the country than in the city. Think the infringement is four demerit points off your license (you can lose up to twelve within a three year period before your license is suspended) and A$100 fine if you, as the driver, are caught without a seatbelt. Driver gets a smaller penalty if any minor in the vehicle is caught without one (where they are fitted), and a passenger adult is fined directly. We take it very seriously in WA.
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