GB
Chief Eating Officer
Cooking does not kill the toxins produced bt the bacteria.
Would you eat a turkey brined at 68 degrees F?
- Thread starter -Cp
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that enjoys cooking.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Callisto in NC
Washing Up
Exactly! I'm amazed so many people don't know this.
Brine ratio is a pound of salt to 10 or more gallons of water. Every briner I've ever encountered has made one thing clear, keep below 40 degrees or don't bother cooking.
Why, you're right! However, most bacteria will suffer from the osmotic potential created by a high saline interstitial environment, aka a brine. Why do you cure a ham in salt? Where are the toxins there?
According to the FDA, everything should be thrown out the instant it hits the "danger zone."
To each his own.
ETA: I understand that the salt concentration in a brine is not as high as in a cure, but the OP asked about 6 hours worth of time at 68 degrees. That's not the same as 24 hours at 90 degrees.
-Stooxie
GB
Chief Eating Officer
No according to the FDA everything should not be thrown out as soon as it hits the danger zone. I believe they say it needs to be in the danger zone for 2 hours before it becomes dangerous.
As for the OP having it in for 6 hours at 68 degrees, not it is not the same as 24 hours at 90 degrees, but it is still very much in the danger zone long enough to cause serious harm up to and including death. Saying that it is only 6 hours at 58 degrees, not 24 hours at 90 degrees is kind of like saying he was only shot with one bullet, not 5.
Curing a ham with salt and brining something are completely different techniques and can not be compared as far as food safety. The reason the salt works so well to cure your ham is that it is drawing moisture out of the meat. With a brine, moisture is going in the opposite direction.
As for the OP having it in for 6 hours at 68 degrees, not it is not the same as 24 hours at 90 degrees, but it is still very much in the danger zone long enough to cause serious harm up to and including death. Saying that it is only 6 hours at 58 degrees, not 24 hours at 90 degrees is kind of like saying he was only shot with one bullet, not 5.
Curing a ham with salt and brining something are completely different techniques and can not be compared as far as food safety. The reason the salt works so well to cure your ham is that it is drawing moisture out of the meat. With a brine, moisture is going in the opposite direction.
Ok, this will be my last post so that I don't deprive you of having the last word.
Whether salt pulls water into or out of meat is totally irrelevant to what it does to bacteria. You think a single cell organism is going to be pleased with all that sodium and water being drawn in to it's cell? Anyway...
Adios...
GB
Chief Eating Officer
No need to get nasty. We just just on opposite sides of a coin. I happen to think you are dangerously wrong about brining safety. You happen to think I am wrong. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is really no need to get personal.
Bilby
Executive Chef
Okay, in answer for your request for clarification from me, I was more trying to say that I am cautious but not unduly so. This thread has become a tad heated, so I do respond rather reluctantly.
And yes, I do know about the toxins but I also know that what may occur and what generally does occur are two separate things. The bacteria are killed off in the heat that was applied. The turkey was brined for only part of that six hours at 68F surely and not for the entire six hours as it would have had to have got to that temperature from cold. I don't think -Cp was implying that it was at 68F at the start of the brining process.
My parents would prepare the ham every hot Christmas in a metal pail of salt water in the bathroom under the sink and did so for over twenty years. I imagine several Australian families did similarly. Would never had a hope of brining it in a fridge - fridge to small and ham too big!!
The temps would certainly have reached higher than 68F as it is not unknown to have 40C + at Christmas. I dare say, my mum would still do the same now if she had to, irrespective of new standards in food handling.
Yes food poisoning is horrid and yes very terrible things can come of it but chances are it is unlikely in this situation. (My situation was an extreme, with only two or three cases a year reported in Perth, and substantially less the amount that don't regain full function of their kidneys.) Assuming all other food handling methods were of a good practice level, on a risk level, and rather than throwing away what I would assume is a fairly expensive bird, I think the odds are on -CP's side.
Best practice would be to throw it out but as that has to be tempered by real life from time to time, in answer to the initial question, I would eat it.
Hope that clarifies for you. If not, please let me know.
And yes, I do know about the toxins but I also know that what may occur and what generally does occur are two separate things. The bacteria are killed off in the heat that was applied. The turkey was brined for only part of that six hours at 68F surely and not for the entire six hours as it would have had to have got to that temperature from cold. I don't think -Cp was implying that it was at 68F at the start of the brining process.
My parents would prepare the ham every hot Christmas in a metal pail of salt water in the bathroom under the sink and did so for over twenty years. I imagine several Australian families did similarly. Would never had a hope of brining it in a fridge - fridge to small and ham too big!!
The temps would certainly have reached higher than 68F as it is not unknown to have 40C + at Christmas. I dare say, my mum would still do the same now if she had to, irrespective of new standards in food handling.Yes food poisoning is horrid and yes very terrible things can come of it but chances are it is unlikely in this situation. (My situation was an extreme, with only two or three cases a year reported in Perth, and substantially less the amount that don't regain full function of their kidneys.) Assuming all other food handling methods were of a good practice level, on a risk level, and rather than throwing away what I would assume is a fairly expensive bird, I think the odds are on -CP's side.
Best practice would be to throw it out but as that has to be tempered by real life from time to time, in answer to the initial question, I would eat it.
Hope that clarifies for you. If not, please let me know.
GB
Chief Eating Officer
Nope that certainly clarifies. What I understand you saying is that you understand that it is not the safest thing in the world, but the odds are on your side so you will take the chance.
I agree that the odds are small that you will get sick. The way I see it though, is that the damage that can occur is so severe that it is not a change I am willing to take. I see it the same way as wearing a seatbelt. I know people who refuse to put them on. They have never been in a car accident and the seatbelt has never done anything for them. I can bet you though that if/when they do get in an accident they will be wishing they had that belt on.
While the turkey may be expensive, is it really more expensive than a stay in a hospital or a coffin?
As to this point
I agree that the odds are small that you will get sick. The way I see it though, is that the damage that can occur is so severe that it is not a change I am willing to take. I see it the same way as wearing a seatbelt. I know people who refuse to put them on. They have never been in a car accident and the seatbelt has never done anything for them. I can bet you though that if/when they do get in an accident they will be wishing they had that belt on.
While the turkey may be expensive, is it really more expensive than a stay in a hospital or a coffin?
As to this point
I read it completely differently. I read that it WAS at 68 for the entire 6 hours.Bilby said:
-Cp said:
bethzaring
Master Chef
hmmm, food poisoning is nothing to mess with. I will toss a hunk of organic meat or any other food in an instant if I find I have mistreated it. Of course, I am still shaky over a recent incident. The week-end before Thanksgiving, dh and I went to a pot luck. At 8:00 pm Saturday, he consumed some shi take mushroom gravy. At 9:30 Monday morning, 37.5 hours later, he "exploded". He was one sick puppy. It took him about one week to feel normal again.
Yes, I have training in food safety, and I do bend some of the rules, very slightly though. But brining at 68*, even if only for 4 hours, I would have tossed it.
Yes, I have training in food safety, and I do bend some of the rules, very slightly though. But brining at 68*, even if only for 4 hours, I would have tossed it.
LEFSElover
Executive Chef
on the fence. either it's a yes or a no for us/me.
seems like the temp was not cold enough but then I'm not sure I would have even checked the temp myself.
seems like the temp was not cold enough but then I'm not sure I would have even checked the temp myself.
Bilby
Executive Chef
At first GB, that's exactly how I read it - as that's what it states! But I started to think about it a little and wondered if how it was worded was exactly what was intended. I thought, and I may be completely wrong on this point, that as soon as they were aware that it had reached 68F, they would have returned it to the fridge to cool down. That's is why I interpretted the statement to mean that it had been put to brine and at the six hour mark it was discovered the temp was up to 68F.
But either way, as it was earlier agreed (I think!!!) that the bacteria was killed off in the cooking process, it is the toxins that remain as the concern, and it is there that I believe the risk is minimal. It does not mean thought that I would just eat it without caution. I did clarify my response earlier on where I would only eat the turkey hot, and I would not freeze or keep reheat leftovers, and nor would I keep the bird for any length of time. It is highly likely to deteriorate at a greater rate than something that is handled in better conditions.
Your analogy wih the seatbelts is a good one but the rate of risk is greatly increased in the scenario but it is similar.
You know when I first got ill, I was, I guess paranoid covers it well enough, about food hygeine but then a nurse said to me that she didn't think I would eat out again as I didn't know about the food handling of the place I was at. I thought about that and then realised that as I was still in hospital, I was doing exactly what she didn't think I would! At that point, sanity returned.
I endeavour to practice best food handling and get a little stroppy with people who pack my food without a thought about it, or put food in my fridge without due consideration of contamination, eg raw meat next to processed. (Grrrr!!!) To me it is generally a case of risk management, which does not mean necessarily risk elimination. But to you it might, and that is fair and reasonable for you to take it that way.
However after all of these three pages of debate, we have not heard back from -CP....
But either way, as it was earlier agreed (I think!!!) that the bacteria was killed off in the cooking process, it is the toxins that remain as the concern, and it is there that I believe the risk is minimal. It does not mean thought that I would just eat it without caution. I did clarify my response earlier on where I would only eat the turkey hot, and I would not freeze or keep reheat leftovers, and nor would I keep the bird for any length of time. It is highly likely to deteriorate at a greater rate than something that is handled in better conditions.
Your analogy wih the seatbelts is a good one but the rate of risk is greatly increased in the scenario but it is similar.
You know when I first got ill, I was, I guess paranoid covers it well enough, about food hygeine but then a nurse said to me that she didn't think I would eat out again as I didn't know about the food handling of the place I was at. I thought about that and then realised that as I was still in hospital, I was doing exactly what she didn't think I would! At that point, sanity returned.
I endeavour to practice best food handling and get a little stroppy with people who pack my food without a thought about it, or put food in my fridge without due consideration of contamination, eg raw meat next to processed. (Grrrr!!!) To me it is generally a case of risk management, which does not mean necessarily risk elimination. But to you it might, and that is fair and reasonable for you to take it that way.
However after all of these three pages of debate, we have not heard back from -CP....
GotGarlic
Chef Extraordinaire
I'm not clear on why you think the source and its being fresh rather than frozen makes it safer to leave out at too high a temperature. Could you explain?
GB
Chief Eating Officer
Bilby, I think you and I are more in agreement than not, just to different degrees. My statements are based on what the OP said though, not on what I think he might be trying to say. If he comes back and clarifies to say he really meant that the turkey was only at 68 for an hour or so then I would revise my statement.
Like you, I am about risk management, not risk elimination. I love to eat out and I know darn well that proper food handling is not always practiced. If I see something though that I know is not safe (open kitchen and chef touches raw chicken then without washing touches a plate that is going out, for example) then I will leave the restaurant and not return. If I don't know first hand of the bad things going on behind the scenes then it is not something I will give a second thought. In the situation we have in this thread though, if we assume the OP meant what he said about the bird being at 68 for 6 hours, tossing it would be risk management. We know for a fact (again assuming the OP meant what he said) that the bird was in the danger zone long enough (by far) to cause serious harm if ingested.
Like you, I am about risk management, not risk elimination. I love to eat out and I know darn well that proper food handling is not always practiced. If I see something though that I know is not safe (open kitchen and chef touches raw chicken then without washing touches a plate that is going out, for example) then I will leave the restaurant and not return. If I don't know first hand of the bad things going on behind the scenes then it is not something I will give a second thought. In the situation we have in this thread though, if we assume the OP meant what he said about the bird being at 68 for 6 hours, tossing it would be risk management. We know for a fact (again assuming the OP meant what he said) that the bird was in the danger zone long enough (by far) to cause serious harm if ingested.
Bilby
Executive Chef
Yay GB - we stand united!!
But we still haven't heard from -Cp!!!!!
But we still haven't heard from -Cp!!!!!
GB
Chief Eating Officer
I hope he isn't in the hospitalYay GB - we stand united!!
But we still haven't heard from -Cp!!!!!
Bilby
Executive Chef
Have to send him positive thoughts, or at least thought to post again!!
GB
Chief Eating Officer
Exactly
Well, I ate it... never got sick... *yet*... It's been a couple of days now..
Thanks for all the replies... I do believe, however, that the fact this turkey was butchered as well as it was, plus the brine helped preserve it...
To clarify, the bird was kept below 38 degrees before we started the brine. The tempurature change occured when I had to add more brine (from the hot-water solution) - due the fact that the bringing vessel was larger than what we had anticipated - so I had to add more solution to submerge the bird - we didn't have enough ICE in it to cool the water back down enough - hence the 68-degrees.
The Brine I use is as follows:
6 quarts hot water
1 pound kosher salt
1 pound dark brown sugar
5 pounds ice
1 (13 to 14-pound) turkey, with giblets removed
So, yeah, I guess a pound of salt helped out.. hehe.. salt-cures and salt as a preservative was used all the time before refridgeration..dunno..
I've seen folks bring up what the FDA says - really? Does anyone here really give a hoot about the FDA? The same administration who says we have to overcook our hamburger, pork and chicken? Really?
I'd rather stop eating meat then have to eat overcooked, dried-out stuff that occurs from following anything the FDA says we must do...
Thanks for all the replies... I do believe, however, that the fact this turkey was butchered as well as it was, plus the brine helped preserve it...
To clarify, the bird was kept below 38 degrees before we started the brine. The tempurature change occured when I had to add more brine (from the hot-water solution) - due the fact that the bringing vessel was larger than what we had anticipated - so I had to add more solution to submerge the bird - we didn't have enough ICE in it to cool the water back down enough - hence the 68-degrees.
The Brine I use is as follows:
6 quarts hot water
1 pound kosher salt
1 pound dark brown sugar
5 pounds ice
1 (13 to 14-pound) turkey, with giblets removed
So, yeah, I guess a pound of salt helped out.. hehe.. salt-cures and salt as a preservative was used all the time before refridgeration..dunno..
I've seen folks bring up what the FDA says - really? Does anyone here really give a hoot about the FDA? The same administration who says we have to overcook our hamburger, pork and chicken? Really?
I'd rather stop eating meat then have to eat overcooked, dried-out stuff that occurs from following anything the FDA says we must do...
GrillingFool
Head Chef
I expect, just like the expiration date on milk, that there is a bit of erring on the side of caution when these guidelines are established.
Probably for people like -cp and me, who eat it anyway, LOL!
Probably for people like -cp and me, who eat it anyway, LOL!
Similar threads
