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Old 11-28-2007, 09:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stooxie View Post
the fact that it was obviously going to be cooked, I would have eaten it no problem.

-Stooxie
Cooking does not kill the toxins produced bt the bacteria.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by GB View Post
Cooking does not kill the toxins produced bt the bacteria.
Exactly! I'm amazed so many people don't know this.

Brine ratio is a pound of salt to 10 or more gallons of water. Every briner I've ever encountered has made one thing clear, keep below 40 degrees or don't bother cooking.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:42 PM   #23
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Cooking does not kill the toxins produced bt the bacteria.
Why, you're right! However, most bacteria will suffer from the osmotic potential created by a high saline interstitial environment, aka a brine. Why do you cure a ham in salt? Where are the toxins there?

According to the FDA, everything should be thrown out the instant it hits the "danger zone."

To each his own.

ETA: I understand that the salt concentration in a brine is not as high as in a cure, but the OP asked about 6 hours worth of time at 68 degrees. That's not the same as 24 hours at 90 degrees.

-Stooxie
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:52 PM   #24
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No according to the FDA everything should not be thrown out as soon as it hits the danger zone. I believe they say it needs to be in the danger zone for 2 hours before it becomes dangerous.

As for the OP having it in for 6 hours at 68 degrees, not it is not the same as 24 hours at 90 degrees, but it is still very much in the danger zone long enough to cause serious harm up to and including death. Saying that it is only 6 hours at 58 degrees, not 24 hours at 90 degrees is kind of like saying he was only shot with one bullet, not 5.

Curing a ham with salt and brining something are completely different techniques and can not be compared as far as food safety. The reason the salt works so well to cure your ham is that it is drawing moisture out of the meat. With a brine, moisture is going in the opposite direction.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:56 PM   #25
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Curing a ham with salt and brining something are completely different techniques and can not be compared as far as food safety. The reason the salt works so well to cure your ham is that it is drawing moisture out of the meat. With a brine, moisture is going in the opposite direction.
Ok, this will be my last post so that I don't deprive you of having the last word.

Whether salt pulls water into or out of meat is totally irrelevant to what it does to bacteria. You think a single cell organism is going to be pleased with all that sodium and water being drawn in to it's cell? Anyway...

Adios...
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:01 PM   #26
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No need to get nasty. We just just on opposite sides of a coin. I happen to think you are dangerously wrong about brining safety. You happen to think I am wrong. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is really no need to get personal.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:10 PM   #27
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From this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirley Corriher
Question: Are there any safety considerations when brining?

Answer: Yes. Flavor brining does not kill bacteria the way that brining for preservation does. Therefore, you must brine in the refrigerator - either in a plastic freezer bag with a zip top or a nonreactive bowl large enough to submerge the meat. Use a heavy nonreactive plate or bowl on top of the meat, if needed, to keep it submerged.

Ms. Corriher uses baking bags for large items such as turkeys. If your refrigerator isn't large enough to hold what you are brining, Ms. Corriher suggests sealing the meat or poultry and brine in a plastic bag and placing it in a cooler packed with ice.

Discard the brine after using it.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:56 AM   #28
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Okay, in answer for your request for clarification from me, I was more trying to say that I am cautious but not unduly so. This thread has become a tad heated, so I do respond rather reluctantly.

And yes, I do know about the toxins but I also know that what may occur and what generally does occur are two separate things. The bacteria are killed off in the heat that was applied. The turkey was brined for only part of that six hours at 68F surely and not for the entire six hours as it would have had to have got to that temperature from cold. I don't think -Cp was implying that it was at 68F at the start of the brining process.

My parents would prepare the ham every hot Christmas in a metal pail of salt water in the bathroom under the sink and did so for over twenty years. I imagine several Australian families did similarly. Would never had a hope of brining it in a fridge - fridge to small and ham too big!! The temps would certainly have reached higher than 68F as it is not unknown to have 40C + at Christmas. I dare say, my mum would still do the same now if she had to, irrespective of new standards in food handling.

Yes food poisoning is horrid and yes very terrible things can come of it but chances are it is unlikely in this situation. (My situation was an extreme, with only two or three cases a year reported in Perth, and substantially less the amount that don't regain full function of their kidneys.) Assuming all other food handling methods were of a good practice level, on a risk level, and rather than throwing away what I would assume is a fairly expensive bird, I think the odds are on -CP's side.

Best practice would be to throw it out but as that has to be tempered by real life from time to time, in answer to the initial question, I would eat it.

Hope that clarifies for you. If not, please let me know.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:37 AM   #29
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Nope that certainly clarifies. What I understand you saying is that you understand that it is not the safest thing in the world, but the odds are on your side so you will take the chance.

I agree that the odds are small that you will get sick. The way I see it though, is that the damage that can occur is so severe that it is not a change I am willing to take. I see it the same way as wearing a seatbelt. I know people who refuse to put them on. They have never been in a car accident and the seatbelt has never done anything for them. I can bet you though that if/when they do get in an accident they will be wishing they had that belt on.

While the turkey may be expensive, is it really more expensive than a stay in a hospital or a coffin?

As to this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilby
The turkey was brined for only part of that six hours at 68F surely and not for the entire six hours
I read it completely differently. I read that it WAS at 68 for the entire 6 hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Cp
we found that the turkey was at 68-degree's for about 6 hours before we put it back in the fridge to lower it below 40...
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:05 AM   #30
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hmmm, food poisoning is nothing to mess with. I will toss a hunk of organic meat or any other food in an instant if I find I have mistreated it. Of course, I am still shaky over a recent incident. The week-end before Thanksgiving, dh and I went to a pot luck. At 8:00 pm Saturday, he consumed some shi take mushroom gravy. At 9:30 Monday morning, 37.5 hours later, he "exploded". He was one sick puppy. It took him about one week to feel normal again.
Yes, I have training in food safety, and I do bend some of the rules, very slightly though. But brining at 68*, even if only for 4 hours, I would have tossed it.
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