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Old 11-29-2007, 01:55 PM   #41
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No one said to blindly follow the FDA, but you can't argue with the science. The rate that the bacteria multiply at temps between 40 and 140 are well documented.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:06 PM   #42
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No one said to blindly follow the FDA, but you can't argue with the science.
Well, that's not exactly true either...

My dad has been to Russia quite a few times now - and they (like many other countries I'm sure) have these open-markets where the sides of beef, chickens etc. are sitting outside - just hanging around. No refridgeration around at all. You go up, tell the merchant how much you want - they go and whack it off and sell it to you.

He's convinced that what those folks can stomach would make most of us westernized, sterilized folk, sick... hehe
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:08 PM   #43
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Just because they do that does not mean that the rate bacteria multiply within the danger zone has not been quantified and well documented. Your dad also does not see the cases of food poisoning that occur (and yes they do occur) from those practices in Russia.

Just because it is done and your dad did not see first hand any problems really does not mean anything at all as far as safety goes.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:21 PM   #44
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Well, I ate it... never got sick... *yet*... It's been a couple of days now..

Thanks for all the replies... I do believe, however, that the fact this turkey was butchered as well as it was, plus the brine helped preserve it...
Why do you think the way it was butchered, or as you said earlier, its source, would make it safer? All barnyard animals are contaminated with salmonella and botulism to some extent (this just talks about salmonella; botulism bacteria live in dirt everywhere): http://nyschap.vet.cornell.edu/modul...hingSlides.pdf

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To clarify, the bird was kept below 38 degrees before we started the brine. The tempurature change occured when I had to add more brine (from the hot-water solution) - due the fact that the bringing vessel was larger than what we had anticipated - so I had to add more solution to submerge the bird - we didn't have enough ICE in it to cool the water back down enough - hence the 68-degrees.
So you added *hot* brine partway through the brining process? Or at the beginning?

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So, yeah, I guess a pound of salt helped out.. hehe.. salt-cures and salt as a preservative was used all the time before refridgeration..dunno..
Well, as GB said, salt curing and preserving are very different from brining. And it's important to remember that while people in the past did all kinds of things regarding health, they were not very healthy overall, primarily due to infectious disease. I can find references if you're interested, but from previous research on this topic for other forums, I can tell you this:

- In 1900, half of all children born in the United States died before their first birthday.
- In 1900, the average life expectancy in the U.S. was about 47; most deaths were in childhood due to diarrhea, which of course is a primary symptom of food poisoning.

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I've seen folks bring up what the FDA says - really? Does anyone here really give a hoot about the FDA? The same administration who says we have to overcook our hamburger, pork and chicken? Really?
There's no law that says you *have* to overcook anything; they provide guidelines that probably err a bit on the side of caution, but if you don't like the FDA, how about the Mayo Clinic?

Mayo Clinic - Check the Temperature to Avoid Food Poisoning
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:21 PM   #45
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Just because they do that does not mean that the rate bacteria multiply within the danger zone has not been quantified and well documented. Your dad also does not see the cases of food poisoning that occur (and yes they do occur) from those practices in Russia.

Just because it is done and your dad did not see first hand any problems really does not mean anything at all as far as safety goes.
Huh.. that's funny - the USA - even with its "FDA Guidelines" has about the same (given the population) cases of Food poisoning as Russia:

Country/Region Extrapolated Incidence Population Estimated Used
USA 82,050,777 293,655,4051
Russia 40,228,047 143,974,0592

Statistics by Country for Food poisoning - WrongDiagnosis.com
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:26 PM   #46
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All that means to me -Cp is that people are not following the FDA guidelines and getting food poisoning. Those figures do nothing to bolster your point.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:33 PM   #47
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So.. cooking it to temp wouldn't kill off any bad bacteria then?

GB is right. The answer is no.

If that were true you wouldn't need to refrigerate it ever.

You should definitely not have cooked and eaten it. But hope you are ok.

And you should never use hot water for a brine. First of all, there's no reason to heat the water, but if you do, only heat a small amount, dissolve the salt/sugar and cool it down. Brining water should always be ice cold.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
Why do you think the way it was butchered, or as you said earlier, its source, would make it safer? All barnyard animals are contaminated with salmonella and botulism to some extent (this just talks about salmonella; botulism bacteria live in dirt everywhere): http://nyschap.vet.cornell.edu/modul...hingSlides.pdf
For certain, the way an animal is raised and butchered greatly affects its overall health to humans - why do you think it's always commercial Beef that gets the e-coli? One never hears of beef from a small butcher getting this. Again, it's in the handling of the animal.

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Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
So you added *hot* brine partway through the brining process? Or at the beginning?
Partway through - if I had to do it over again, I would've first chilled that water before adding it hot - my bad.


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Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
Well, as GB said, salt curing and preserving are very different from brining. And it's important to remember that while people in the past did all kinds of things regarding health, they were not very healthy overall, primarily due to infectious disease. I can find references if you're interested, but from previous research on this topic for other forums, I can tell you this:

- In 1900, half of all children born in the United States died before their first birthday.
Sorry - not true - At the beginning of the 20th century, for every 1000 live births, six to nine women in the United States died of pregnancy-related complications, and approximately 100 infants died before age 1 year.
Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999: Healthier Mothers and Babies

100 in 1000 is nowhere close to half.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
- In 1900, the average life expectancy in the U.S. was about 47; most deaths were in childhood due to diarrhea, which of course is a primary symptom of food poisoning.
Half - true:
This observation coincides with our knowledge of the massive decrease in the mortality of children due to infectious disease and diarrhea.
HealthSentinel.com


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Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
There's no law that says you *have* to overcook anything; they provide guidelines that probably err a bit on the side of caution, but if you don't like the FDA, how about the Mayo Clinic?

Mayo Clinic - Check the Temperature to Avoid Food Poisoning
From that link:
Steaks and roasts 145 F
Fish 145 F
Pork 160 F
Ground beef 160 F
Egg dishes 160 F
Chicken breasts 165 F
Whole poultry 165 F
Leftovers 165 F

Once again - they list jacked up tempuratures which would make most meats unenjoyable.

Steaks at 145F? ??
Pork at 160F? WHY!?!??! IF the pork you're cooking even remotely has the bad bacteria in it - it's killed at 137F

From Alton Brown:
"Alton: I do not always agree with the government and in this case I think they're way off base. For one thing, Trichinella spiralis die at 137 degrees. Of course in this case they would have had to survive the curing process which is highly doubtful. The water activity level of a country ham is simply too low to support that kind of life. Also, T spriralis have been nearly eradicated from the American hog population through the use of better feeds. As far as I know, the only instances of trichinosis in recent years involved wild game such as bear and puma."


Ground Beef 160F? I'd eat the ground beef from our butcher raw...

Those are simply guildlines assuming one gets their product from commercial sources.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:38 PM   #49
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All that means to me -Cp is that people are not following the FDA guidelines and getting food poisoning. Those figures do nothing to bolster your point.
The point being, that even with our wide-spread refridgeration we get just as sick as those who don't use it.. .
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:43 PM   #50
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The question in this post though was about eating a turkey that was in a brine at 68 degrees for 6 hours. It was not about pork being cooked to 160 or steak being cooked to 145. Those are completely different topics. The FDA has said that the danger zone is 40 to 140 because of science pure and simple. They have looked under a microscope and counted the bacteria multiplying. It really is as simple as that.

Eating something that has been in the danger zone does not guarantee that someone will get sick. It does raise the risk level though and if you are one of the unlucky who do get sick you will be wishing and praying that you would have paid more attention to food safety.
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