GotGarlic
Chef Extraordinaire
I've never heard of brining ham, either.
Would you eat a turkey brined at 68 degrees F?
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I've never heard of brining ham, either.
Andy M.
Certified Pretend Chef
Ham is both the name of the part of the hog and the finished product. To make a ham, you butcher a ham (rear leg from the hip to the knee) off the hog and brine it to make ham. You can also smoke the brined ham as an added option.
GotGarlic
Chef Extraordinaire
Heh, right there on the post I wrote earlier, the link at the USDA includes info on brining ham. I guess living in SE VA I hear so much about Smithfield country ham (and see it in the grocery stores), and I don't eat a lot of ham myself, that I don't think about the other types.
Callisto in NC
Washing Up
Thanks GotGarlic. I don't eat ham so all I knew is it wasn't in the refrigerator section and has Junior Johnson's picture on it.
Bilby
Executive Chef
Here, vacuum packed ham is sliced ham or a chunk of ham that is just vacuum packed and needs refrigeration. This stuff sounds more like a preserved ham, which I couldn't possibly comment on one way or the other!! 
GB
Chief Eating Officer
Even if everything you say is true Cordel, the bacteria produce toxins that can make you sick and even kill you and those toxins are not killed by heat. There also is no where near enough salt in a brine to kill enough things to make it safe.
mozart
Senior Cook
Toxins.........
GB,
This is my second post on this forum, so I'm a little hesitant to be at odds with the Administrator. I have read through this entire thread, and have a couple of comments.
First, bacteria do not produce toxins, at least not in amounts that make people sick. There is ONE particular bacteria, Staphylococcus, that does produce a toxin that causes food poisoning. However, this bacteria is associated with contamination of cooked foods or foods that are never cooked (think potato salad). It flourishes in temps from 80-100 degrees (think picnic or nasty restaurant). It is not found, to my knowledge in poultry or other meats, and seem to come from contamination by food preparers after the cooking process, if any, and then poor refrigeration of the prepared product. I have not heard of it associated with raw poultry, although it could certainly be introduced after the bird was cooked.
Second, the main bacteria that are associated with poultry are Salmonella, and Campylobacter, both of which are easily killed with proper cooking. Also E. Coli, if present, will be killed if proper temperatures are adhered to.
Almost all food poisonings are caused by either improper cooking (not reaching proper temperature ( think Jack in the box hamburgers) or contamination after cooking. This contamination often comes from improper hand washing on the part of food handlers after using the restroom, or cross-contamination, like putting cooked foods on surfaces that previously had uncooked foods without proper cleaning (like using a single cutting board to cut up raw chicken, and carving the cooked chicken)
Because Staph is a toxin poisoning, it occurs relatively quickly after ingesting the contaminated food, usually 6-12 hours.
Salmonella, and others, must have time to multiply in your body, so they take usually 12-24 hours depending on the dose (amount of bacteria ingested).
Almost all the angst over turkey around thanks giving comes from the custom of stuffing the bird ( think insulation) and allowing it to sit in the area that used to be the turkey's gut and bowels for a long period at a temperature that often doesn't reach a level adequate to kill the bacteria present. Leaving the bird out for 6 hours at 60 degrees makes this problem potentially worse, because, as you have pointed out, there will be a lot more bacteria to kill. Worse, the stuffing closest to the outside gets the hottest and is probably fine, but deep down inside is where the problem lies. Then in order to display the "traditional Thanksgiving" many cooks leave the bulk of the stuffing in the bird during dinner and that hour or so afterwords where the bacteria multiply even further. For that reason, I don't ever stuff a turkey.
I can't remember if the OP stuffed his bird or not. If he did, I'd really be leery. If he didn't, it is a tougher call. Frankly, I see no reason, if properly cooked and handled properly afterwords, why this turkey would be unsafe.
I'm not sure, however, I'd feel comfortable serving a turkey that I knew had been held above 40 degrees for a significant amount of time to 15 of my closest relatives and friends.
Mozart
GB,
This is my second post on this forum, so I'm a little hesitant to be at odds with the Administrator. I have read through this entire thread, and have a couple of comments.
First, bacteria do not produce toxins, at least not in amounts that make people sick. There is ONE particular bacteria, Staphylococcus, that does produce a toxin that causes food poisoning. However, this bacteria is associated with contamination of cooked foods or foods that are never cooked (think potato salad). It flourishes in temps from 80-100 degrees (think picnic or nasty restaurant). It is not found, to my knowledge in poultry or other meats, and seem to come from contamination by food preparers after the cooking process, if any, and then poor refrigeration of the prepared product. I have not heard of it associated with raw poultry, although it could certainly be introduced after the bird was cooked.
Second, the main bacteria that are associated with poultry are Salmonella, and Campylobacter, both of which are easily killed with proper cooking. Also E. Coli, if present, will be killed if proper temperatures are adhered to.
Almost all food poisonings are caused by either improper cooking (not reaching proper temperature ( think Jack in the box hamburgers) or contamination after cooking. This contamination often comes from improper hand washing on the part of food handlers after using the restroom, or cross-contamination, like putting cooked foods on surfaces that previously had uncooked foods without proper cleaning (like using a single cutting board to cut up raw chicken, and carving the cooked chicken)
Because Staph is a toxin poisoning, it occurs relatively quickly after ingesting the contaminated food, usually 6-12 hours.
Salmonella, and others, must have time to multiply in your body, so they take usually 12-24 hours depending on the dose (amount of bacteria ingested).
Almost all the angst over turkey around thanks giving comes from the custom of stuffing the bird ( think insulation) and allowing it to sit in the area that used to be the turkey's gut and bowels for a long period at a temperature that often doesn't reach a level adequate to kill the bacteria present. Leaving the bird out for 6 hours at 60 degrees makes this problem potentially worse, because, as you have pointed out, there will be a lot more bacteria to kill. Worse, the stuffing closest to the outside gets the hottest and is probably fine, but deep down inside is where the problem lies. Then in order to display the "traditional Thanksgiving" many cooks leave the bulk of the stuffing in the bird during dinner and that hour or so afterwords where the bacteria multiply even further. For that reason, I don't ever stuff a turkey.
I can't remember if the OP stuffed his bird or not. If he did, I'd really be leery. If he didn't, it is a tougher call. Frankly, I see no reason, if properly cooked and handled properly afterwords, why this turkey would be unsafe.
I'm not sure, however, I'd feel comfortable serving a turkey that I knew had been held above 40 degrees for a significant amount of time to 15 of my closest relatives and friends.
Mozart
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GB
Chief Eating Officer
mozart, please do not be hesitant to post because I am an admin. I am just a member like anyone else and as long as you post in accordance to our community policies (as you did perfectly) then you have as much right as anyone else to voice your opinion.
I am very short on time right now so this will be a quick message, but in response to your post I will just simply say that if there was no danger of getting sick from a turkey left in the danger zone then there would be no need to refrigerate it which I think everyone will agree is not the case.
I am very short on time right now so this will be a quick message, but in response to your post I will just simply say that if there was no danger of getting sick from a turkey left in the danger zone then there would be no need to refrigerate it which I think everyone will agree is not the case.
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mozart
Senior Cook
danger zone......
Hi GB,
I wouldn't say there is no danger to leaving turkey in the danger zone. I ended by saying I probably wouldn't serve it to my family or friends under the original scenario as presented.
I just wanted to point out a few misconceptions about food poisoning. The pathogenic organisms that cause food poisoning are varied and are prevalent in our environment. But just like animals, they have habitats they prefer. Some prefer the intestinal tract (Salmonella, Campylobacter, E. coli) while others prefer areas like the mouth, nose, and hair.
The only two common food poisonings that are caused by toxins are Staph and Botulism. Botulism toxin is the most powerful poison known I have heard. Fortunately it is a rare food poisoning today due to better commercial processing, and occurs mainly from home canned products that are not properly heated prior to canning.
This leaves us with Staph. It is not found normally in large quantities in the intestinal tract, however it is prevalent in the rest of the environment.
So Staph food poisoning could present a danger in turkeys, but it is not likely to originate with the turkey.
The original point of processing of a fresh turkey is the first danger point. Once dressed, it can easily be contaminated by the hands of a careless worker or a fomite ( an inanimate object, like a cutting board or other surface). Turkeys are large and bulky so they take a long time to cool even under refrigeration. This is one reason I prefer frozen turkeys as the time in the danger zone after slaughter is less. I also believe that one is more likely to encounter problems with a small shop (butcher, etc) than a large processing plant that has many internal controls and is monitored closer by government agencies.
The second danger point is the possibility of contamination by the preparer prior to cooking. Thawing a turkey at room temperature is a good example, especially if it is handled unwrapped. If staph is present in the environment at that site, it can multiply on the bird, however, the preferred environment for staph is mid-sixties to 100 for best growth.
If growth occurs, there will be toxins, which may or may not be enough to make someone sick. Sickness comes from the body's reaction to the toxin. However, at this point, any bacteria growing on the bird will be killed by cooking, so the process stops at that point and whatever toxin is there you get. This assumes, however, complete cooking including the stuffing and cavity.
The next danger point, and the most common one for Staph poisoning, comes after the cooking. Contamination at that point by hands or fomites is more dangerous, because the food is more likely to be held in the 65- 100 degree range for several hours, allowing the bacteria to multiply and produce toxins. It is also more likely to lead to a far worse case of poisoning then the before cook scenario, because as you eat leftovers, you are not only ingesting toxins, but the live bacteria too, which just love that 96.8 degree temp in your body and therefore multiply and produce even more toxins.
This is the most common scenario in restaurants where contaminated food is left on steam tables for long periods without proper temperature.
Personally, I use frozen birds, thawed in the refrigerator, cooked unstuffed and stripped completely of meat very soon after served. I then either freeze it or put it in very shallow containers with lots of surface area exposed to get it cooled in the refrigerator as soon as possible.
I might add, this doesn't make me very popular with the family, who like to pick at the bird for hours after it is done and then would prefer to just tent it aluminum foil and put in the refrigerator for later
I applaud you and other administrators and moderators here for your continued positions in support of food safety and I did not intend to undermine your message. I tend to be very cautious, particularly with cooking temperatures and after prep handling and refrigeration.
However, I didn't want people thinking that all pathogenic bacteria produce toxins that make you sick, and wanted to emphasize that, in most cases, what you do after you cook something is a far more important contributor to food poisoning than what you do before.
Mozart
Hi GB,
I wouldn't say there is no danger to leaving turkey in the danger zone. I ended by saying I probably wouldn't serve it to my family or friends under the original scenario as presented.
I just wanted to point out a few misconceptions about food poisoning. The pathogenic organisms that cause food poisoning are varied and are prevalent in our environment. But just like animals, they have habitats they prefer. Some prefer the intestinal tract (Salmonella, Campylobacter, E. coli) while others prefer areas like the mouth, nose, and hair.
The only two common food poisonings that are caused by toxins are Staph and Botulism. Botulism toxin is the most powerful poison known I have heard. Fortunately it is a rare food poisoning today due to better commercial processing, and occurs mainly from home canned products that are not properly heated prior to canning.
This leaves us with Staph. It is not found normally in large quantities in the intestinal tract, however it is prevalent in the rest of the environment.
So Staph food poisoning could present a danger in turkeys, but it is not likely to originate with the turkey.
The original point of processing of a fresh turkey is the first danger point. Once dressed, it can easily be contaminated by the hands of a careless worker or a fomite ( an inanimate object, like a cutting board or other surface). Turkeys are large and bulky so they take a long time to cool even under refrigeration. This is one reason I prefer frozen turkeys as the time in the danger zone after slaughter is less. I also believe that one is more likely to encounter problems with a small shop (butcher, etc) than a large processing plant that has many internal controls and is monitored closer by government agencies.
The second danger point is the possibility of contamination by the preparer prior to cooking. Thawing a turkey at room temperature is a good example, especially if it is handled unwrapped. If staph is present in the environment at that site, it can multiply on the bird, however, the preferred environment for staph is mid-sixties to 100 for best growth.
If growth occurs, there will be toxins, which may or may not be enough to make someone sick. Sickness comes from the body's reaction to the toxin. However, at this point, any bacteria growing on the bird will be killed by cooking, so the process stops at that point and whatever toxin is there you get. This assumes, however, complete cooking including the stuffing and cavity.
The next danger point, and the most common one for Staph poisoning, comes after the cooking. Contamination at that point by hands or fomites is more dangerous, because the food is more likely to be held in the 65- 100 degree range for several hours, allowing the bacteria to multiply and produce toxins. It is also more likely to lead to a far worse case of poisoning then the before cook scenario, because as you eat leftovers, you are not only ingesting toxins, but the live bacteria too, which just love that 96.8 degree temp in your body and therefore multiply and produce even more toxins.
This is the most common scenario in restaurants where contaminated food is left on steam tables for long periods without proper temperature.
Personally, I use frozen birds, thawed in the refrigerator, cooked unstuffed and stripped completely of meat very soon after served. I then either freeze it or put it in very shallow containers with lots of surface area exposed to get it cooled in the refrigerator as soon as possible.
I might add, this doesn't make me very popular with the family, who like to pick at the bird for hours after it is done and then would prefer to just tent it aluminum foil and put in the refrigerator for later
I applaud you and other administrators and moderators here for your continued positions in support of food safety and I did not intend to undermine your message. I tend to be very cautious, particularly with cooking temperatures and after prep handling and refrigeration.
However, I didn't want people thinking that all pathogenic bacteria produce toxins that make you sick, and wanted to emphasize that, in most cases, what you do after you cook something is a far more important contributor to food poisoning than what you do before.
Mozart
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GotGarlic
Chef Extraordinaire
It appears that this is not correct: Salmonella Infection: Health Topics: University of Iowa Health Care
<quote>
Gastroenteritis, or food poisoning, is the most common type of Salmonella infection. It results from the toxin of intestinal bacteria that live in animals and humans. The most common cause is eating improperly prepared or stored foods. It is not the Salmonella bacteria, but its toxins (byproducts), that cause illness.
<end quote>
jennyema
Chef Extraordinaire
I don't think you're right about that. Here's a discussion of bacterial food poisoning and a chart of what bacteria throw off heat resistant spores/toxins.
For example:
Clostridium perfringens C. perfringens is found in soil, dust and the gastrointestinal tracts of animals and man. When food containing a large number of C. perfringens is consumed, the bacteria produce a toxin in the intestinal tract that causes illness. C. perfringens can exist as a heat-resistant spore, so it may survive cooking and grow to large numbers if the cooked food is held between 40 degrees F and 140 degrees F for an extensive time period. Meat and poultry dishes, sauces and gravies are the foods most frequently involved. Hot foods should be served immediately or held above 140 degrees F. When refrigerating large volumes of gravies, meat dishes, etc., divide them into small portions so they will cool rapidly. The food should be reheated to 165o F. prior to serving.
Bacillus cereus B. cereus is found in dust, soil and spices. It can survive normal cooking as a heat-resistant spore, and then produce a large number of cells if the storage temperature is incorrect. Starchy foods such as rice, macaroni and potato dishes are most often involved. The spores may be present on raw foods, and their ability to survive high cooking temperatures requires that cooked foods be served hot or cooled rapidly to prevent the growth of this bacteria.
Bacillus can cause a pretty common form of food poisoning from rice, which is why some people refuse to eat Chinese leftovers. I've had it. From fried rice. Not fun.
mozart
Senior Cook
You are correct GotGarlic.
I should have said the only two toxins that are not destroyed easily by heat are Staph and Botulism.
All bacteria produce toxins (byproducts)
From the article you linked: ". It is not the Salmonella bacteria, but its toxins (byproducts), that cause illness. Anything contaminated with Salmonella bacteria, that is not heated to a high enough temperature to destroy the toxins before being eaten, may cause illness."
GB said several times that heat doesn't kill the toxins. I was trying to point out that heat does destabilize most toxins from food borne pathogens.
According to this: ( apparently I haven't been here long enough to post a URL yet
)
Salmonella toxins are easily destroyed by cooking.
Mozart
I should have said the only two toxins that are not destroyed easily by heat are Staph and Botulism.
All bacteria produce toxins (byproducts)
From the article you linked: ". It is not the Salmonella bacteria, but its toxins (byproducts), that cause illness. Anything contaminated with Salmonella bacteria, that is not heated to a high enough temperature to destroy the toxins before being eaten, may cause illness."
GB said several times that heat doesn't kill the toxins. I was trying to point out that heat does destabilize most toxins from food borne pathogens.
According to this: ( apparently I haven't been here long enough to post a URL yet
)Salmonella toxins are easily destroyed by cooking.
Mozart
mozart
Senior Cook
Hi Jennyema,
Note that Clostridium p. is a spore that isn't killed by heat. In order to grow in the intestine after and produce the toxin, the food has to be improperly held after cooking, which is what I'm saying is the main cause of food poisonings.
Bacillus cereus is also a spore former. It also multiplies AFTER cooking.
I was discussing toxins that are generated on food before cooking and are not destroyed by the heat of cooking.
The two I know about, and the only common ones I believe, are the two I mentioned. Botulism bacteria also for spores and are the same genus, Clostridium, as your reference above.
There may possibly be more under certain circumstances, but they are not big players in food borne illness to my knowledge.
Mozart
jennyema
Chef Extraordinaire
I see now. Thanks.
Probably in a broader sense, the important point is that even if bacteria is killed they may throw off things that can make you sick which are not killed by heat.
Probably in a broader sense, the important point is that even if bacteria is killed they may throw off things that can make you sick which are not killed by heat.
GB
Chief Eating Officer
I guess my error was in using the word toxins.
Regardless, this has become a very fascinating conversation. Thanks for jumping in mozart.
Regardless, this has become a very fascinating conversation. Thanks for jumping in mozart.
GB, re. previous seatbelt comment:
"I see it the same way as wearing a seatbelt. I know people who refuse to put them on."
Please tell them that by doing that, their life expectancy decreases significantly.
I would also recommend them to see a therapist (I am not joking), since this device is the best one to help you in case of a vehicle accident.
"I see it the same way as wearing a seatbelt. I know people who refuse to put them on."
Please tell them that by doing that, their life expectancy decreases significantly.
I would also recommend them to see a therapist (I am not joking), since this device is the best one to help you in case of a vehicle accident.
GB
Chief Eating Officer
Well we all do stupid things from time to time wysiwyg. One of my friends has a somewhat decent reason for not wearing one though. She was in a very bad accident many years ago and had she been wearing a seatbelt she would have been killed. It was only because she was not wearing it that she is still alive. Now granted, the odds of something like that happening are MUCH smaller than having the opposite be true, but because it happened to her she thinks she is better off without it. I will never be without one though. the way I see it, it is so easy to put it on and it can do so much to save your life.
And that is my point with food safety. It is so easy to practice good food safety that it just seems crazy to me not to take the extra step.
And that is my point with food safety. It is so easy to practice good food safety that it just seems crazy to me not to take the extra step.
mozart
Senior Cook
Thanks, GB
I just want to say before we end this that there is no single commonly cooked food product that is inherently less safe than poultry, and turkey in particular.
This is because rather than cooking a solid muscle, as in a beef roast or ham, your are cooking the whole carcass, including the gut cavity that not only is far more likely to be contaminated in the first place, but is the last place to reach the sufficient temperature to render it safe.
Turkey is the worst simply because of it's size and the length of time it takes to "get out of the danger zone".
However, I think there is a misconception here that the high side of the danger zone is the proper temperature to cook foods (140 degrees) to be safe and that that differers somehow from the temperature it takes to be "done".
Poultry is not safe at 145 degrees even though it is out of the danger zone. Yes, there will be no more bacteria forming at that temperature, but it may not sufficient to kill the bacteria already present or destabilize the toxins from say Salmonella.
"safe " temperatures do migrate around from jurisdiction to jurisdiction ( for example 42 degrees is often given as the low temp in many states) however, this list seems fairly reasonable to me and I'm sure all these limits have some safety factor built in ( thermometers are notoriously inaccurate and asking them to be within 1 degree is a fairy tale):
<LI type=square>[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Poultry and Stuffing: 165º F[/FONT] <LI type=square>[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Pork: 145º F[/FONT] <LI type=square>[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Beef, Lamb and Seafood: 145º F[/FONT] <LI type=square>[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Rare Beef: 130º F[/FONT] <LI type=square>[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Hamburger (ground beef): 155º F[/FONT]
Notice the difference between beef and hamburger. This is because in a beef roast, only the outside layer will contain significant bacteria. Hamburger has much more surface area exposed to contamination in processing and handling, so the inside is just as likely to be contaminated as the outside.
The point here is that the outside ( the potentially contaminated part) of the roast will easily reach 155 prior to the inside reaching 145 but a burger needs to hit at least 155 all the way through.
Turkey in a Crockpot? Never. You might as well take it to the lab and put it in an incubator.
I vote we make a stand and make prime rib the meat of choice on Thanksgiving
Then our discussions will be around whether sour cream or heavy cream makes for better horseradish sauce.Mozart
Bilby
Executive Chef
There have been a couple of reported cases in Australia too where the person would have been seriously injured or killed if they had been wearing a seatbelt. But they are rare. DUI, speed and no seatbelt are the three biggest killers on our roads. The rate for (no) seatbelt deaths is greater in the country than in the city. Think the infringement is four demerit points off your license (you can lose up to twelve within a three year period before your license is suspended) and A$100 fine if you, as the driver, are caught without a seatbelt. Driver gets a smaller penalty if any minor in the vehicle is caught without one (where they are fitted), and a passenger adult is fined directly. We take it very seriously in WA.
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