"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > Recipes & Ingredients > Breads, Pizza & Sandwiches > Yeast Breads, Rolls & Braids
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-02-2007, 07:38 PM   #1
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 43
Need help with white bread recipe

i have made the white bread recipe from the bread baker's apprentice a few times now, and i'm not sure if i'm getting the results i am supposed to. i use the second version so i can use up buttermilk after making the cinnamon rolls, haven't tried the other two yet. the flavor of the bread comes out great, a little sweeter than i would like for sandwich bread, but it's great for toast and snack bread. the problem is it is somewhat heavy and not very airy. the top of the loaf only gets to be about 4 inches high total. does anyone know if this is how it is supposed to be? i've followed the directions very closely and let it rise both times in my oven that i had at 400 degrees for a minute then turned off, somewhere it suggested that i believe. i use a KA Pro 6 qt mixer with the spiral dough hook that i kneed for the suggested 6-8 minutes, could that be too much maybe? i also use king arthur bread flour, and everything is room temperature.

anyone got ideas, or maybe another recipe that is more along the lines of sandwich bread, the guys in my household are looking for sandwich bread. not totally like the supermarket stuff, but similar.

thanks-
katie

__________________

__________________
Kat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 07:45 PM   #2
Executive Chef
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Raton,NM, USA
Posts: 4,573
You can cut back the sugar if it's too sweet for you and I really think you should take it out of the mixer after mixing it in there and kneading by hand a few minutes until it's smooth and somewhat satiny.I would also not rush the rising and let it rise slowly on a warm place in the kitchen until doubled shape loaves and let rise again and bake.
If you give us the recipe we can see whats really going on.
I think it might be you are not kneading it enough.
Check out this sitebaking911homepage
Go to the top and click bread then click on solutions and then to trouble shooting.
__________________

__________________
jpmcgrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2007, 04:13 PM   #3
Sous Chef
 
subfuscpersona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat
i have made the white bread recipe from the bread baker's apprentice a few times now, and i'm not sure if i'm getting the results i am supposed to. i use the second version ... the problem is it is somewhat heavy and not very airy. the top of the loaf only gets to be about 4 inches high total...let it rise both times in my oven that i had at 400 degrees for a minute then turned off, somewhere it suggested that i believe. i use a KA Pro 6 qt mixer with the spiral dough hook that i kneed for the suggested 6-8 minutes, could that be too much maybe? i also use king arthur bread flour, and everything is room temperature.
katie
hi Kat,

I have The Bread Baker's Apprentice so I looked at the recipe you're using. Have a few thoughts...

> preheating the oven may be making the rising temp too high and could be killing off some of the yeast. What is the approximate temperature of your kitchen? Unless it is cold (low 60s F or below) just let it rise at room temp as the recipe says.

> what size loaf pans are you using? If the pans are too big for the size of the dough, this could be part of the problem. However, I do think that preheated oven for your rising environment is the more likely culprit

> 6-8 min of kneading with the KA spiral dough hook is ample - this is not the problem

> on sugar - agree that 3 TBS sugar for 2 pounds dough that's just supposed to produce white sandwich bread seems rather a lot; reduce or eliminate as you see fit

============================
PS Here's my link to the all-purpose bread I made when my kids were growing up. For 15 years, it never failed me
__________________
subfuscpersona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2007, 12:59 AM   #4
Sous Chef
 
subfuscpersona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 562
Make this Bread and help Kat

The recipe Kat is using is:
4-1/4 cups [19 oz] unbleached bread flour
1-1/2 tsp [.38 oz] salt
3 TBS [1.5 oz] sugar
2 tsp [.22 oz] instant yeast
1 large [1.65 oz] egg, slightly beaten, at room temperature
1/4 cup [2 oz] butter, margarine or shortening, at room temp or vegetable oil
1-1/2 cups [12 oz] buttermilk or whole milk, at room temp (Kat is using buttermilk)
I cannot give the instructions (copyright problems!) but this recipe is from The Bread Bakers Apprentice by Peter Reinhart, pp266-268.

Kat has 2 problems with this recipe, one major and one minor:
> major problem re rising
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat on 03-02-2007, 07:38 PM
the problem is it is somewhat heavy and not very airy. the top of the loaf only gets to be about 4 inches high total.
> minor problem re sweetness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat on 03-02-2007, 07:38 PM
(it is) a little sweeter than i would like for sandwich bread
I intend to make this recipe and post my results to this thread. Other readers who have this book are encouraged to do the same.

Since Kat finds the recipe too sweet, I will reduce the sugar by 1/2. Otherwise it will be made as written. I do have to buy some buttermilk to make the recipe so I hope to post my results in about a week.

Please join me in this trouble-shooting exercise. If you have the book, make the recipe and post your results to this thread.
__________________
subfuscpersona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 09:24 PM   #5
Sous Chef
 
subfuscpersona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 562
Buttermilk White Bread - part I - Equipment

in the first post in this thread, Kat said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat on 03-02-2007, 07:38 PM
i have made the white bread recipe from the bread baker's apprentice a few times now, and i'm not sure if i'm getting the results i am supposed to... the problem is it is somewhat heavy and not very airy. the top of the loaf only gets to be about 4 inches high total.
On 03-04-2007 I promised to make this bread. I have now made this recipe 2 times . I also took many photos which I will include in subsequent posts.

In order to help Kat with her problem, I tried to use similar equipment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat on 03-02-2007, 07:38 PM
i use a KA Pro 6 qt mixer with the spiral dough hook
I used my KA 5-quart mixer (model K5SS).

Kat's KA mixer has the spiral dough hook

Name:   kitchenaidSpiralDoughHook.jpg
Views: 3635
Size:  10.2 KB
whereas mine has the "C-type" dough hook

Name:   kitchenaidCtypeDoughHook.jpg
Views: 3585
Size:  1.7 KB
.

The spiral dough hook is supposed to be more efficient in kneading dough. Otherwise our mixers are pretty similar.

I used 2 pyrex loaf pans (1.5 qt. capacity - 8.5 x 4.5 x 2.5 inches) for baking.

I measure most ingredients by weight, so I also used a kitchen digital scale.

I will be posting a detailed discussion of the recipe and procedure as soon as I can organize my thoughts and photos. Stay tuned...

PS The recipe does work. Here's a photo of a finished loaf...
Click image for larger version

Name:	buttermilkWhiteLoafBread-10a.jpg
Views:	288
Size:	46.9 KB
ID:	2578
__________________
subfuscpersona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 10:00 PM   #6
Master Chef
 
Chief Longwind Of The North's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA,Michigan
Posts: 9,229
Flat, heavy bread is usually the result of:

A: The yeast isn't good
B: The yeast is killed before it has a chance to rise from too much heat
C: The flour has too little protien (gluten) in it
D: The dough is too dry
E: The dough hasn't been kneeded enough to develop the gluten
F: Too much fat has been added to the recipe

A: It's always a good idea to proof the yeast by mixing the sugar and yeast together and disolving in water who's temperature reads between 100 and 110. It should develop a substatial foam and smell yeasty after only a few minutes.

B: I have ruined many a loaf from trying to let dough rise in a warm oven. If the oven gets too hot, that heat will kill the yeast. I have achieved my best dough rising success by placing a wide, shallow plastic bowl, half filled with water, into the microwave and heating until it just begins to boil. I then place my larger bowl on top of the other and close the microwave door. The latent heat from the once boiling water is sufficient to really excite the yeast, without cooking them.

C: All purpose flour has the minimum require gluten to produce good bread. Bread flour has even more and is required for good baguettes, and most artisan style breads. The glutenous (elastic) nature of the dough captures more Co2, which results in greater rise, and lighter final product.

D: The dough should be slightly sticky when worked. And the only way to know if your dough has the right texture is to work it with your hands.

E: And just for the record, it is nearly impossible to overwork (kneed too much) the dough. It must be kneeded to create the required elasticity. The bread will not toughen as the time required for the dough to rise will allow the gluten strands to relax, but without giving up the Co2 that creates the thousands of tiny gas bubble that give bread its texture.

F: Too much fat inhibits the elasticity, and creates a tough, hard to work dough. Too little fat results in a dry laf of bread that will such the moisture right from your mouth. As a good general rule, add about three tablespoons oil for every cup of flour.

Now go, bake bread, and conquer the universe.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North
__________________
“No amount of success outside the home can compensate for failure within the home…"

Check out my blog for the friendliest cooking instruction on the net. Go ahead. You know you want to.- http://gwnorthsfamilycookin.wordpress.com/
Chief Longwind Of The North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 10:12 PM   #7
Sous Chef
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 905
You are following the instructions. If it says "let rise an hour, punch down, etc." , you need to let rise until doubled, punch down, form your loaves and let rise until it is the height of bread you want. THEN put it in the oven and bake it. With bread there is no magic time that will be the time to let it rise. It will do it as it grows.
If you do this already and are still not satisfied, then disregard my try at helping.
__________________
Candocook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 10:34 PM   #8
Sous Chef
 
Aria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 619
subfuscpersona, Beautiful loaf. All problems should be solved.
__________________
Aria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 10:38 PM   #9
Sous Chef
 
subfuscpersona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 562
Buttermilk White Bread - part 2 - Ingredients and Measuring

The recipe Kat is using is a white loaf bread variation from Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice on p.268.

The recipe makes 2 pounds of dough for 2 one-pound loaves. The dough is soft and malleable. The recipe uses the straight dough method, which simply means that all ingredients are combined (and kneaded) to make the dough. The dough has 2 rises, one in the bowl and one in the pan.

I measured the major ingredients (flour, buttermilk and fat) by weight using my scale. Salt, sugar and yeast were measured by volume.

Kat said she found the recipe as written slightly too sweet. I therefore reduced the amount of sugar somewhat but otherwise kept close to the original recipe ingredients and instructions. Here they are...

Ingredients
4-1/4 cups [19 oz] unbleached bread flour
I used Gold Medal bread flour
1-1/2 tsp [.38 oz] salt
since kosher salt is the standard salt in my kitchen, I increased the amount of salt to 2 tsp
4 tsp sugar (that's 1 TBS plus 1 tsp)
the original recipe calls for 3 TBS sugar
2 tsp [.22 oz] instant yeast
instant yeast is designed to be added directly to dry ingredients. Unlike active dry yeast, it does not have to be dissolved in water first. If you use active dry yeast, I would suggest measuring your liquid and then removing 2 TBS from the total amount. Then take 2 TBS of warm water and dissolve the active dry yeast in the water (about 5-10 minutes). Then add the dissolved yeast with the water back into your liquid. Generally, when a recipe calls for instant yeast, but you only have active dry yeast, the amount of yeast is slightly increased. One package of active dry yeast would be about right. For instant yeast, measure by the teaspoon since one package of instant yeast has slightly more than 2 tsp. However, don't agonize over the amounts. This bread is designed for fairly quick risings.
1 large egg , slightly beaten
1/4 cup [2 oz] butter, margarine, shortening or vegetable oil
I used shortening
1-1/2 cups [12 oz] buttermilk or whole milk
I used buttermilk since that is what Kat used and the whole point of this exercise is to reproduce the recipe as kat makes it in order to troubleshoot.
===================
It is important that ingredients that are normally refrigerated (the buttermilk, egg and solid fat) be allowed to come to room temperature before beginning to mix your ingredients.
__________________
subfuscpersona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 11:53 PM   #10
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 43
thanks for the replies everyone and the troublshooting advice, it's a great help. the loaf that subfuscpersona made looks like i want it to. i was originally putting it in a warm oven becasue i wasn't sure if the room temperature was enough, it was really cold here in minnesota last month. i have been wanting to try making another batch, but some family issues came up and haven't had time yet. i'm going to make some more this weekend and use the suggestions everyone has given. i'll post up results sometime this weekend. i think i'll pick up a kitchen scale this weekend too and try doing it by weight. i appreciate the help.
__________________

__________________
Kat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.