Whole wheat bread, help please

[LT72884]

Ok so i have a good friend who taught me to make 100% whole wheat bread. She adds honey,oil, instant yeast, rolled oats, wheat flour and wheat gluetin. It takes 10 minutes to mix it and we dont let it rise. We put it right in the oven and it rises on its own. awesome bread

Ok so i wanted to try a new recipe that was almost the same. Honey, wheat flour, oil and instant yeast. I mixed it and baked it and it was flat. So my question is:

Whats the difference between the two recipees that makes it so that the first one does not need rising time but yet the second one needs two hours? Should it not rise in the oven just like the other one?

Thanx

 

[Randy_]

We'll wait for an expert to shed some light; but I suspect it is the lack of wheat gluten in the second recipe that caused the problem assuming everything else is the same.

 

[Russellkhan]

It's really hard to say what went wrong, you didn't go very deeply into the details of the recipes (e.g. there must be water of some sort in both breads, right?). Have you successfully made the first bread you describe on your own? Are the only changes between the two breads the ones I noticed in your descriptions? Assuming that the only changes are the lack of oats and lack of wheat gluten, I'd guess that the thing making the difference is the gluten, though normally I wouldn't expect leaving gluten out to be a problem.

I've never made a bread like the one you describe. The very least time for rising I've ever made bread with was about 90 minutes. I would think for a recipe like that you'd need a lot of yeast.

 

[Selkie]

Developing the gluten in any bread is what allows it to rise and not go flat after it cools. In regular bread, developing the long gluten strands without adding wheat gluten, just by using flour, is accomplished by kneading, usually twice, before baking. The addition of wheat gluten adds strands that are already developed and trap any gases given off by the yeast, giving the bread "lift." Without properly developing the gluten in the flour by sufficient kneading, or adding gluten, the gases escape the mixture and you end up with flat bread.

The major difference between the typical double-knead process and that of adding wheat gluten, is the "crumb" (the texture of the bread after baking and cooling). Properly kneaded bread has a much finer and more complete gas pocket distribution. Bread that uses gluten in a one-step knead/mix process is more coarse and usually doesn't lift as high while baking, but does cut the preparation time by about half.

 

[letscook]

post the 2 recipes so we can see what it might be.

 

[apple*tart]

My guess is the lack of vital wheat gluten in the second recipe as well.

If you're interested in making quick & easy whole wheat bread, you may want to check out the new Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day book that came out a week ago.

 

[Wyogal]

I would venture a guess that it was the gluten. If you don't use extra gluten, then you'd have to knead (or otherwise develop), as in Selkie's explanation.

 

[samue1eb]

I agree with what the others said, it probably has to do with the gluten. Something I started doing when I had troubled getting bread to rise in the oven is I put a pizza stone in the oven while I am pre-heating and then place the bread in it's pan on top of the pizza stone and it has given me better results. So I would recommend that and using extra gluten.

 

[ChefJune]

Developing the gluten in any bread is what allows it to rise and not go flat after it cools. In regular bread, developing the long gluten strands without adding wheat gluten, just by using flour, is accomplished by kneading, usually twice, before baking. The addition of wheat gluten adds strands that are already developed and trap any gases given off by the yeast, giving the bread "lift." Without properly developing the gluten in the flour by sufficient kneading, or adding gluten, the gases escape the mixture and you end up with flat bread.

The major difference between the typical double-knead process and that of adding wheat gluten, is the "crumb" (the texture of the bread after baking and cooling). Properly kneaded bread has a much finer and more complete gas pocket distribution. Bread that uses gluten in a one-step knead/mix process is more coarse and usually doesn't lift as high while baking, but does cut the preparation time by about half.

You got here ahead of me! Thanks for going into such great detail!

With 100% whole wheat bread, I always tell my students that you absolutely cannot knead it too much. Developing gluten in 100% ww bread takes a lot longer than in bread made with unbleached or other white flour.

Your original recipe calls for extra wheat gluten, and that is the reason you were able to bake it straight away without kneading or rising. I question the quality of the texture of that bread, though.... Of course I have not seen it.

For me, I knead my 100% ww bread and rye bread a minimum of 20 minutes. before I even think about letting it rise.

 

[Selkie]

For me, I knead my 100% ww bread and rye bread a minimum of 20 minutes. before I even think about letting it rise.

Wow! That's a long time! (And I already know that rye flour never develops gluten - at least not easily anyway.) But not having ever made 100% Whole Wheat Bread (I stick to 50/50 with honey), I didn't realize that the kneading process took so long. What ratio of ww flour to wheat gluten to you use - when you use it?

 

[ChefJune]

I have never used extra wheat gluten, so I couldn't help you with that.

 

[LT72884]

My guess is the lack of vital wheat gluten in the second recipe as well.

If you're interested in making quick & easy whole wheat bread, you may want to check out the new Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day book that came out a week ago.

thats where the second recipe came from. i have the first book from 5 min a day.

The first recipe has:

water
oil
honey
yeast
wheat glutien
100% whole wheat flour ( ground it my self. not sure of protein amount)
rolled oats
salt

Not sure of the amounts since i need to find the recipe. I know that the water amount stayed the same BUT we had to almost double the amount till the dough came off of the sides of the bosch bread mixer. Once the sides of the bread mixing bowl were clean and the dough was a nice niform mass. We took it out and made our loafs. Put them in the pan and waited a few minutes for oven to pre heat. put them in 10-15 minutes later and boom. nice soft bread that was not flat.

Then i tried my bread:

1.5 c lukewarm milk
1.5 c lukewarm water
1.5 tblsp yeast
1.5 tbls salt
6 2/3 cup 100% whole wheat flour

Since this is a no knead bread i mixed it with a wooden spoon and let rise for 2 hours. then made loafs and let rise another 40 minutes. baked and went flat and small loafs. Does not make sense that the above recipe did not "knead" any rising time and it turned out great. BUT my 5 minute a day recipe did not and i even let it rise.... There was no "oven spring" at all either

thanx

 

[Wyogal]

I don't understand why you think it doesn't make sense. I think the difference in wheat gluten and sugar in the recipe, made a difference, getting different results.

 

[LT72884]

I don't understand why you think it doesn't make sense. I think the difference in wheat gluten and sugar in the recipe, made a difference, getting different results.

no there is honey in the second recipe. i just suck at typing

The first recipe has:

water
oil
honey
yeast
wheat glutien
100% whole wheat flour ( ground it my self. not sure of protein amount)
rolled oats
salt

Not sure of the amounts since i need to find the recipe. I know that the water amount stayed the same BUT we had to almost double the amount till the dough came off of the sides of the bosch bread mixer. Once the sides of the bread mixing bowl were clean and the dough was a nice niform mass. We took it out and made our loafs. Put them in the pan and waited a few minutes for oven to pre heat. put them in 10-15 minutes later and boom. nice soft bread that was not flat.

Then i tried my bread:

1.5 c lukewarm milk
1.5 c lukewarm water
1/4 c honey
5tbls oil
1.5 tblsp yeast
1.5 tbls salt
6 2/3 cup 100% whole wheat flour

Since this is a no knead bread i mixed it with a wooden spoon and let rise for 2 hours. then made loafs and let rise another 40 minutes. baked and went flat and small loafs. Does not make sense that the above recipe did not "knead" any rising time and it turned out great. BUT my 5 minute a day recipe did not and i even let it rise.... There was no "oven spring" at all either

thanx

 

[Wyogal]

You changed the recipe, leaving out a key ingredient, gluten.

 

[LT72884]

You changed the recipe, leaving out a key ingredient, gluten.

Ok so its the gluten that is causing the issue of rising and what not. As i said before, the first recipe is from a friend and the second is from artisan bread in 5 min a day.

I guess i need a better understanding of adding extra gluten.

thanx

 

[Selkie]

As I type this, I'm eating a slice of sandwich quality, double knead, double rise, delicious bread that a little over 2 hours ago was nothing more than flour, salt and water. If you're trying to cut time from beginning to end, I beat your last effort by almost an hour, and I was guaranteed no failure by using a traditional and proven recipe and not being afraid of getting my hands coated with flour.

My suggestion to you is to learn the basics of bread baking before changing a working recipe. I'm sure your 5 min. mix-only bread recipe makes a friendly loaf of bread. Making a soup or stew is an art... bread making is a science that uses specific formulas in order to be successful. Respectfully, I suggest you learn those formulas before trying to change them.

 

[apple*tart]

Respectfully, the artisan bread in 5 minutes a day method yields wonderful bread when made correctly. They are on par with the best artisan breads made at local bakeries here where I live.

Since the first and second recipes were made using entirely different methods, you can't compare them. The first recipe was kneaded, the second was not. Those are two divergent bread-making methods. Instead, maybe just focus on why the second recipe didn't turn out.

From reading the new cookbook (Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day), which just came out last week, and the authors' blog, my guess is that your problem is the home-ground whole wheat, if you used that in your second recipe. In the 2nd cookbook, they explain that coarser ground flour has larger, more jagged particles of bran, which essentially cut the developing gluten strands, resulting in a flatter, more dense bread. Also, the WW recipes from the first ABin5 book weren't, imho, super fantastic. The second book is devoted to whole grains and from their research they determined the vital wheat gluten is, well, vital to good WW and whole grain breads.

The master recipe for the new HBin5 book is up on their blog, if you want to check it out.

 

[LT72884]

Respectfully, the artisan bread in 5 minutes a day method yields wonderful bread when made correctly. They are on par with the best artisan breads made at local bakeries here where I live.

Since the first and second recipes were made using entirely different methods, you can't compare them. The first recipe was kneaded, the second was not. Those are two divergent bread-making methods. Instead, maybe just focus on why the second recipe didn't turn out.

From reading the new cookbook (Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day), which just came out last week, and the authors' blog, my guess is that your problem is the home-ground whole wheat, if you used that in your second recipe. In the 2nd cookbook, they explain that coarser ground flour has larger, more jagged particles of bran, which essentially cut the developing gluten strands, resulting in a flatter, more dense bread. Also, the WW recipes from the first ABin5 book weren't, imho, super fantastic. The second book is devoted to whole grains and from their research they determined the vital wheat gluten is, well, vital to good WW and whole grain breads.

The master recipe for the new HBin5 book is up on their blog, if you want to check it out.

Sweet thanx. I love the frist book. The master recipe is awesome and creates amazing fast french bread. I just had 10pounds of medal gold WW flour that needed to be used before it went bad. Ill check out the site for the new master recipe.

 

[LT72884]

As I type this, I'm eating a slice of sandwich quality, double knead, double rise, delicious bread that a little over 2 hours ago was nothing more than flour, salt and water. If you're trying to cut time from beginning to end, I beat your last effort by almost an hour, and I was guaranteed no failure by using a traditional and proven recipe and not being afraid of getting my hands coated with flour.

My suggestion to you is to learn the basics of bread baking before changing a working recipe. I'm sure your 5 min. mix-only bread recipe makes a friendly loaf of bread. Making a soup or stew is an art... bread making is a science that uses specific formulas in order to be successful. Respectfully, I suggest you learn those formulas before trying to change them.

Hey, can i get the recipe for this bread you are eating please.