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Old 11-02-2009, 11:06 PM   #1
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Whole wheat bread, help please

Ok so i have a good friend who taught me to make 100% whole wheat bread. She adds honey,oil, instant yeast, rolled oats, wheat flour and wheat gluetin. It takes 10 minutes to mix it and we dont let it rise. We put it right in the oven and it rises on its own. awesome bread

Ok so i wanted to try a new recipe that was almost the same. Honey, wheat flour, oil and instant yeast. I mixed it and baked it and it was flat. So my question is:

Whats the difference between the two recipees that makes it so that the first one does not need rising time but yet the second one needs two hours? Should it not rise in the oven just like the other one?

Thanx

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Old 11-03-2009, 01:54 AM   #2
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We'll wait for an expert to shed some light; but I suspect it is the lack of wheat gluten in the second recipe that caused the problem assuming everything else is the same.
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:20 AM   #3
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It's really hard to say what went wrong, you didn't go very deeply into the details of the recipes (e.g. there must be water of some sort in both breads, right?). Have you successfully made the first bread you describe on your own? Are the only changes between the two breads the ones I noticed in your descriptions? Assuming that the only changes are the lack of oats and lack of wheat gluten, I'd guess that the thing making the difference is the gluten, though normally I wouldn't expect leaving gluten out to be a problem.

I've never made a bread like the one you describe. The very least time for rising I've ever made bread with was about 90 minutes. I would think for a recipe like that you'd need a lot of yeast.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:22 AM   #4
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Developing the gluten in any bread is what allows it to rise and not go flat after it cools. In regular bread, developing the long gluten strands without adding wheat gluten, just by using flour, is accomplished by kneading, usually twice, before baking. The addition of wheat gluten adds strands that are already developed and trap any gases given off by the yeast, giving the bread "lift." Without properly developing the gluten in the flour by sufficient kneading, or adding gluten, the gases escape the mixture and you end up with flat bread.

The major difference between the typical double-knead process and that of adding wheat gluten, is the "crumb" (the texture of the bread after baking and cooling). Properly kneaded bread has a much finer and more complete gas pocket distribution. Bread that uses gluten in a one-step knead/mix process is more coarse and usually doesn't lift as high while baking, but does cut the preparation time by about half.
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Old 11-03-2009, 07:28 AM   #5
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post the 2 recipes so we can see what it might be.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:33 AM   #6
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My guess is the lack of vital wheat gluten in the second recipe as well.

If you're interested in making quick & easy whole wheat bread, you may want to check out the new Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day book that came out a week ago.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:35 AM   #7
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I would venture a guess that it was the gluten. If you don't use extra gluten, then you'd have to knead (or otherwise develop), as in Selkie's explanation.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:59 AM   #8
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I agree with what the others said, it probably has to do with the gluten. Something I started doing when I had troubled getting bread to rise in the oven is I put a pizza stone in the oven while I am pre-heating and then place the bread in it's pan on top of the pizza stone and it has given me better results. So I would recommend that and using extra gluten.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selkie View Post
Developing the gluten in any bread is what allows it to rise and not go flat after it cools. In regular bread, developing the long gluten strands without adding wheat gluten, just by using flour, is accomplished by kneading, usually twice, before baking. The addition of wheat gluten adds strands that are already developed and trap any gases given off by the yeast, giving the bread "lift." Without properly developing the gluten in the flour by sufficient kneading, or adding gluten, the gases escape the mixture and you end up with flat bread.

The major difference between the typical double-knead process and that of adding wheat gluten, is the "crumb" (the texture of the bread after baking and cooling). Properly kneaded bread has a much finer and more complete gas pocket distribution. Bread that uses gluten in a one-step knead/mix process is more coarse and usually doesn't lift as high while baking, but does cut the preparation time by about half.
You got here ahead of me! Thanks for going into such great detail!

With 100% whole wheat bread, I always tell my students that you absolutely cannot knead it too much. Developing gluten in 100% ww bread takes a lot longer than in bread made with unbleached or other white flour.

Your original recipe calls for extra wheat gluten, and that is the reason you were able to bake it straight away without kneading or rising. I question the quality of the texture of that bread, though.... Of course I have not seen it.

For me, I knead my 100% ww bread and rye bread a minimum of 20 minutes. before I even think about letting it rise.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:58 AM   #10
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For me, I knead my 100% ww bread and rye bread a minimum of 20 minutes. before I even think about letting it rise.
Wow! That's a long time! (And I already know that rye flour never develops gluten - at least not easily anyway.) But not having ever made 100% Whole Wheat Bread (I stick to 50/50 with honey), I didn't realize that the kneading process took so long. What ratio of ww flour to wheat gluten to you use - when you use it?
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