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Old 04-03-2009, 08:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonr View Post
Actually, whole wheat flour has more gluten. But the wheat germ breaks things up and makes it more difficult for the gluten strands to develop, so the flour under-performs compared to flours with equivalent levels of gluten.

To me, whole wheat flour is for whole wheat bread. I wouldn't try substituting it in most recipes, and never in cakes and pastries.
I've added gluten to whole wheat flour and turned out a
much more lighter loaf then with the flour alone.
Does the germ also act on the added gluten - making the
strands harder to develop?
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
I've added gluten to whole wheat flour and turned out a
much more lighter loaf then with the flour alone.
Does the germ also act on the added gluten - making the
strands harder to develop?
No idea, but it makes sense to me that adding more gluten would counter-act the effect the wheat germ has on development.

Anyone know the answer?
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:38 AM   #13
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Wheat germ has never been implicated in shredding stands of gluten during the bread making process.....wheat bran has. Even that problem can be mitigated by using the sponge method, to soften the bran. The only ingredient to cause me any trouble with harming the developing gluten is cinnamon.

What I find most important in working with whole wheat flour is learning to work with one variety/cultivar of wheat. I do not like to change the whole wheat flour I work with because the learning curve is more than I want to go through. Next important is learning to work with the bread machine. I find I can consistently turn out well risen, tightly structured, easily sliceable including thinly slicing bread, with a bread machine....don't understand why, maybe the change in yeast used, maybe the machine is better at kneading. I used to add wheat gluten to every loaf because the recipe developed with a former bread machine called for it. My current bread machine recipe does not use wheat gluten nor does it need it. The recipe for whole wheat bread has 3 different sizes of loaves, but only the extra large loaf performs well for me. The large and medium sized loaves do not turn out to my satisfaction.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:24 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by bethzaring View Post
Wheat germ has never been implicated in shredding stands of gluten during the bread making process.....wheat bran has. Even that problem can be mitigated by using the sponge method, to soften the bran. The only ingredient to cause me any trouble with harming the developing gluten is cinnamon.

What I find most important in working with whole wheat flour is learning to work with one variety/cultivar of wheat. I do not like to change the whole wheat flour I work with because the learning curve is more than I want to go through. Next important is learning to work with the bread machine. I find I can consistently turn out well risen, tightly structured, easily sliceable including thinly slicing bread, with a bread machine....don't understand why, maybe the change in yeast used, maybe the machine is better at kneading. I used to add wheat gluten to every loaf because the recipe developed with a former bread machine called for it. My current bread machine recipe does not use wheat gluten nor does it need it. The recipe for whole wheat bread has 3 different sizes of loaves, but only the extra large loaf performs well for me. The large and medium sized loaves do not turn out to my satisfaction.
Would you be willing to post your recipe (or share it via PM) for the large loaf here so others can try it? Also, can you give the specific brand of WW flour that you are using? Is it available in grocery stores or do you have to get it online? Sorry for all the questions, but curious minds would like to achieve the same level of success you are having.

Thanks in advance.

FG
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Old 04-07-2009, 09:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by FlyGuy View Post
Would you be willing to post your recipe (or share it via PM) for the large loaf here so others can try it? Also, can you give the specific brand of WW flour that you are using? Is it available in grocery stores or do you have to get it online? Sorry for all the questions, but curious minds would like to achieve the same level of success you are having.

Thanks in advance.

FG

I called Panasonic and was told I could post their recipes on the Internet, so here is the recipe for an extra large loaf of whole wheat bread. I weigh some of the ingredients.

whole wheat flour- 21 3/16 ounces or 4 5/16 cups
salt- 2 t.
dry milk- 2 T.
Butter- 2 1/2 T. (I use oil)
Molasses 2 T. (I use white granulated sugar)
water- 14 ounces or 1 3/4 cups
dry yeast- 1 1/2 t.

This machine has a yeast dispenser and it does not add the yeast until it starts to knead the ingredients, AFTER a 1 hour rest period. You add the dry ingredients first, then the water. I have checked and the weighed ingredients vs. the measured ingredients are not the same. I recommend weighing the flour and water.

When I realized I was going to have to change the whole wheat flour I needed to make bread/rolls/pizza crusts/etc. I decided to buy one I could get locally. Well, that almost worked. I used to be able to get it through my local Krogers, but that store stopped carrying it. Now I drive 20 miles to purchase it at Wal-Mart. It is King Arthur Flour Traditional Whole Wheat flour. It is much cheaper buying it at Wal-Mart than the Krogers in that same town, or from King Arthur online. I have tried the King Arthur White Whole Wheat flour which is the same price at Wal-Mart, but I could not make satisfactory bread, but I only tried one 5 pound bag.
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:02 PM   #16
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Thank you very much, Beth. I am going to make it this afternoon following my honey whole wheat bread that I am making for Easter. That recipe only calls for 1/3 WW flour and 2/3 white flour. I have Gold Medal stone ground whole wheat in the pantry, so I'll give it a try with that, and I have molasses so I'll try that too. I have a scale so I'll weigh everything.

I have used white whole wheat flour in the past, and not liked the results as well as using regular whole wheat flour. Maybe it was more perception, because it did not LOOK like whole wheat bread. We don't have King Arthur flour at the store that is nearby, but I will try it the next time I get into the city.

Thanks again for your help.

FG
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:47 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Andy M. View Post
The issue is that whole wheat flour has less gluten than either of the others. As a result, breads, etc have trouble rising properly. You can make WW breads with no other flour but I believe you have to add gluten separately.
If you use only whole wheat flour, you will need to knead the dough at least 20 minutes to get the gluten going properly. I bake 100% whole wheat bread most of the time, with no added gluten. It just takes a bit more elbow grease.

I buy my whole wheat flour from a local farmer.

For my pizza dough, I almost always use half and half whole wheat and unbleached ap flours.
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Vermin8 View Post
How interchangeable are the two? I've noticed a lot of whole wheat bread recipes include some ap or bread flour. Is there an advantage? Can you substitute one for the other one for one?
LOL - the question should really be, "Whole Wheat vs AP vs Bread flour" - you're really dealing with three different flours. And, to complicate things more - whole wheat and bread flours are fairly consistent in their properties - but AP is a wild ride in figuring out what you are dealing with depending on the brand and the region of the US or Canada (just for grins read this Flour Test).

The recipe I used for years for whole wheat bread used 3-cups whole wheat and 4-cups bread flour.
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Old 04-07-2009, 10:31 PM   #19
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I made the whole wheat bread recipe that Beth so graciously provided, with one small addition...4t vital wheat gluten. I also made the recipe in my KitchenAid mixer, mixing the dough for 8 minutes on speed 2. Even with the added gluten and lengthy mixing time, the doubling in size took 90 minutes in the microwave with a cup of hot water in the corner. I divided the dough, folded it in thirds and shaped into two loaves that were placed in 8" x 4" (1#) pans, and raised for another 90 minutes. 26 minutes at 400 F brought the bread to 200 F with a very nice crust. I buttered the crust and set aside for 1 hour before cutting. I can only say one thing about this bread... DELICIOUS! The crumb was light and soft with a nutty flavor. This is definitely a keeper,and I've already increased the recipe to accommodate my 9 X 5 (1.5#) pans so I can have this as sandwich bread. Here is the larger recipe for anyone wishing to try it... you will be pleasantly surprised. I have included weight, volume and baker's percentages. All ingredients were weighed to insure accurate weights. I have pictures, but cannot post yet. The loaves were each 18.2 oz.

Ingredients:



29 oz Stone ground whole wheat flour (5-1/2 to 6 C)......100.0%

3 t Salt (1T + 1t Kosher salt) (.75 oz.) .......................2.5%

3T Dry Milk (.45 oz) ................................................1. 5%

4t Vital wheat gluten (.60 oz.) ..................................2.1%

3T Molasses (2.25 oz.) .............................................7.8%

3T Butter melted (3 oz.) ..........................................10.3%

2-1/2t Instant yeast (.42 oz.) ..........................................1.5%

18.6 oz Warm water (105-110 F) ....................................64.2%

54.82 oz. Total Weight .................................................1 78.5%


Directions:

Combine flour, salt, yeast, vital gluten and dry milk in a large bowl and blend well. In a separate bowl, combine warm water, melted butter and molasses. Hollow out the flour mixture and pour liquid into the center. With a wooden spoon pull the flour into the liquid until you have shaggy mixture, then turn out onto a floured surface and knead until smooth & elastic, about 8-10 minutes. Remove dough to a well greased bowl (covering dough with oil on all surfaces), cover with plastic and allow to rest until doubled in size, about 90 minutes.

If using a stand mixer with dough hook, put liquid into mixing bowl and slowly add flour mixture, reserving about 1/2 Cup. On speed 2, add flour until dough pulls cleanly away from the bowl, then continue to mix for 7 minutes to develop the gluten. Remove dough from bowl and shape into a tight ball, then place in a well greased bowl (covering dough with oil on all surfaces), cover with plastic and allow to rest until doubled in size, about 90 minutes.

Punch down dough and divide into two portions. Fold dough letter style, press dough into a square, then roll into a log shape, pinching the seam closed and tucking the ends under. Place into two oiled 9"x5" bread pans, cover with plastic wrap and place in a warm place until doubled in size, about 90 minutes.

Bake in a pre heated 400 F oven for 30 minutes, or until internal temperature reaches 200 F. Remove from pans to a cooling rack. Wait for one hour before cutting bread. Allow bread to reach room temperature (about 3 hours) before placing in plastic bags and place in the freezer. Will keep up to 30 days. Makes 2 loaves 27 oz. each.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:23 AM   #20
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and thanks to you for this updated recipe...every so often I like to get another machine to make my bread and employ my Hobart Kitchenaid.

For my pizza crusts I like to use equal parts whole wheat bread flour, unbleached white bread flour. and semolina flour.
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