Flour for making pizza

[jim262]

Since most clay and brick ovens have an active fire in them, they will always have the advantage of direct radiant heat from the fire source that speeds the heating and charring of the top of the pizza to help balance the intense heat of oven deck.

In a conventional oven the only radiant heat that reaches the top of the pizza is reflected from the oven walls an top, so the best placement of a pizza stone is high in the oven instead of the bottom. The high in the oven technique is advocated by both Cook’s Illustrated and Nathan Myhrvold in Modernist Cuisine. CI uses a conventional baking stone while Myhrvold uses a quarter inch steel plate cut to fit the oven. Since steel is a much better conductor of heat, it will preheat faster than ceramic and conduct heat into the pizza more efficiently for faster bottom browning. Using the broiler as a direct radiant heat source while the pizza is cooking is also recommended, but I think many broilers have upper limit shutoff that may interfere with the concept.

Either way, they key to properly cooked pizza is balance between top and bottom cooking. I get good results using my stone without the broiler when it is placed high in the oven so I am not quite ready to search for a 20 lb steel plate to improve my pizza, but since the steel plate will probably cost less than an a premium baking stone it is certainly a move worth considering.

 

[FrankZ]

I got an Emile Henry baking stone for Christmas, and it works well in a home oven.

I, too, saw the Jamie Oliver pizza dough recipe...here at DC when a member recommended it. But, even though I found semolina flour at a local specialty food shop, haven't tried recipe yet 'cause it seems complicated (I'm a novice), and it makes a LOT of dough. Rather, used a Cooks Illustrated recipe, subbing King Arthur White Whole Wheat flour for some of the bread flour. It was good. Am going to make some more in a few days and use a little semolina and see how it comes out.

I haven't seen his before but I use a 20% mix of semolina in with my bread flour for making my pizzas. I don't make nearly this much dough when I make mine (unless I am freezing some for later use). I also use a stand mixer to do it instead, makes the whole process very easy peasy lemon squeezy.

 

[Guts]

Guts, I have a half decent oven and it is only maybe 2 years old. I still don't understand how you can get to 650. What brand/model of oven do you have.

Charlie it's a tapen (sp) range I just turned the temperature dial counterclockwise as far as it goes and uses selector on bake I have done no modifications to the oven. I fire the oven up with the stone in it and when I say 600° oven. I am using a infrared(and not a cheap one) going to shoot the stone and somewhere I have a picture when I first got this infrared again reading 612° on the stone. I just can't seem to find the picture right now. this is a gas oven not an electric oven. I don't know if you get electric ovens that hot.

here's a link to the pizza site that I visit quite often. If you're serious about pizza. This is a good discussion board. This is where I saw the information about modifying the ovens. And if you do searches on the site you will eventually see discussions on oven temperature. If you're really interested. Also on making pizzas. I do not use cups, spoons to measure. Thanks. I use weight to measure all my ingredients.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php

 

[Soma]

Gee whiz, Snoopy: you've never made homemade pizza before....and you're fussing so much about what flour to use....?

I've been making homemade pizza for years and years, even when my kids were small and older and at home....and never even gave a thought to the type of flour. I've used whatever I have on hand, usually regular baking flour, sometimes bread flour; I've tried whole wheat, or adding some wheat bran or oat bran, or even cracked wheat to a plain white flour.

I'd say: to make your very first homemade pizza dough - just go for it! with whatever regular flour you have on hand. You can always improve it later, with more tests . and ENJOY! It does fill the house with great pizza odors. And homemade is so delicious.

I didn't realize that there is an entire forum devoted to pizzamaking! Off to explore....

 

[Rocklobster]

Gee whiz, Snoopy: you've never made homemade pizza before....and you're fussing so much about what flour to use....?

I've been making homemade pizza for years and years, even when my kids were small and older and at home....and never even gave a thought to the type of flour. I've used whatever I have on hand, usually regular baking flour, sometimes bread flour; I've tried whole wheat, or adding some wheat bran or oat bran, or even cracked wheat to a plain white flour.

I'
.

I hear ya. I have been making it for years also. I had a restaurant for 13 years also and spent three years in Italy where I watched and learned how to make pizza in the restaurant from experienced pizza cooks. And I also worked for other places that made pizza. It was always just general all purpose flour. It boils down to how you make and handle the dough and cook the pizza. Sure, you may get different results with different flours, but there is no reason you can't get premium pizza crust with all purpose flour. Just dig in and go for it.
This type of discussion reminds me of another hobby of mine which is drumming. On the drum message boards we talk endlessly about the differences and nuances of different drum materials such as steel, copper, maple, birch, brass, and how different depths and dimensions, different drum heads can all change the sound and which is better for certain situations etc. It can be laughable how geeky we can be. When a person listening just hears a "crack" when the drum is hit. It really doesn't make much of a difference to anybody else. I say "just hit the damn thing" Its the player, not the drum. Just like pizza dough. It's the cook, not the flour.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

In a conventional oven the only radiant heat that reaches the top of the pizza is reflected from the oven walls an top, so the best placement of a pizza stone is high in the oven instead of the bottom. The high in the oven technique is advocated by both Cook’s Illustrated and Nathan Myhrvold in Modernist Cuisine. CI uses a conventional baking stone while Myhrvold uses a quarter inch steel plate cut to fit the oven. Since steel is a much better conductor of heat, it will preheat faster than ceramic and conduct heat into the pizza more efficiently for faster bottom browning.

I just watched a PBS cooking afternoon yesterday where they ran several cooking shows all on the topic of pizza, ATK, Lidia's Italy, even the home gardener guy... which led me to this topic.

The most interesting thing was the America's Test Kitchen show where they recommended putting your pizza stone on the top shelf and setting the shelf within a few inches of the top of the oven. It makes sense! Heat rises. The hottest part of the oven is the top! It makes sense to me that the pizza stone should be placed high in the oven. Also note that professional pizza ovens are short. There's no use in wasting the space that serves no purpose. And if a tall oven worked they'd be putting several pizzas in an oven, stacked... but they don't.

Another program (forgot which one) showed a pizza dough recipe that used only Tipo 00 flour, water, salt and dried yeast. It looked so simple! IIRC they let it rise only an hour before flattening and baking. I was impressed that the chef stretched his pizza dough out in about as long as it took me to type this paragraph--the dough was so supple!

Reading in this topic, I agree you don't need any special flour (although I may hunt down that type double-zero). I've made pizza only a couple dozen times, used bread flour, and it was delicious! Might have something to do with the satisfaction of making your own. (IIRC I had some EVOO in my pizza dough recipe)

I was searching counter top pizza ovens on the Internet and was amazed to find them ranging all the way from about $55 to about $6,600! I saw one at the lower end that said the thermostat was adjustable from 150° to 500°. Five hundred degrees? Sheesh, why bother? I'm sure most ovens get at least that hot. What's the point of having a dedicated pizza oven if it can't get up into that high range that seems to be so often recommended, maybe 650° or so?

So what I got out of my research:

(1) put the pizza stone at the top of the oven

(2) you can make good dough with only flour, water, salt, yeast

(3) pizza flour might be nice but you can use whatever you've got

(4) if you're buying a pizza oven you might not want the $55 model (although it's free shipping!)

(5) you probably want to get your oven pretty hot, maybe 650° if you can get there

 

[blissful]

Guts I use 00 or 65 and 55 for all my yeast baking, the reason is that in the UK all white flour has calcium added by law and this affects the texture of the product ie it is impossible to get the light random holes in focaccia using it unless you add ascorbic acid.
I get good results using a stone in my Bompani at 600f but a wood fired oven would improve them.

Bolas, I've never heard anything about adding ascorbic acid to bread for focaccia. Does it react with the calcium, or is it just something that will always make random holes even if there is no added calcium in the flour? Is it added as a solid or dissolved in liquid before adding? Thank you in advance.

Pizza dough, I like it very elastic, I add gluten to my all purpose flour for all of my yeast doughs.

 

[Addie]

So Snoopy104, are you totally confused by now?

 

[Soma]

Greg, I'm guessing that a small pizza oven would use less electricity than an entire stove oven might.....off to do some research. I like small appliances so I don't have to fire up the large one.

 

[FrankZ]

I saw one at the lower end that said the thermostat was adjustable from 150° to 500°. Five hundred degrees? Sheesh, why bother? I'm sure most ovens get at least that hot. What's the point of having a dedicated pizza oven if it can't get up into that high range that seems to be so often recommended, maybe 650° or so?

If I recall correctly you currently don't have an oven that can make pizza... The point might be you could, in far less room than a typical oven would take up.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

Soma, I'm not one of those energy enthusiasts. Anyway stoves around here mostly use natural gas, the counter top pizza makers are electric, and IMO electric is far more than expensive gas at least here in the city.

Frank, I don't have any counter space either. My interest in the subject is for future benefit. I won't be doing baking of any kind until I move.

 

[Andy M.]

Soma, I'm not one of those energy enthusiasts. Anyway stoves around here mostly use natural gas, the counter top pizza makers are electric, and IMO electric is far more than expensive gas at least here in the city.

Frank, I don't have any counter space either. My interest in the subject is for future benefit. I won't be doing baking of any kind until I move.

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Gas is significantly cheaper here in the northeast too (probably true everywhere).

Most of us here make our pizzas in a home oven. I cook mine at or just under 500ºF. Not there is all that much advantage to a dedicated pizza oven unless you don't have a regular oven. (I thought that's why you mentioned it.)

 

[FrankZ]

The pizza stone I use said to preheat to 500F. I don't know how hot it can actually handle.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

Andy, I was just curious about dedicated pizza ovens. The chief advantage I can see is that the good ones are capable of reaching higher temperatures than consumer ovens. In reading and watching the TV shows I became a bit envious that they could cook a pizza sometimes in 3 minutes. It's of course not so you won't have to wait. It appears to me (a novice pizza maker) that the higher temperature and shorter alter the outcome, arguably making better pizza.

When I get back into a house I expect I'll continue cooking pizza in my oven just like I always have. I also expect I won't want to take up valuable counter space with an appliance I would use probably only a few times a month.

Gas is probably cheaper than electric in most if not all cities, but one possible exception may be rural areas cooking from propane delivered to their homes by truck. I was looking at houses in a rural area last summer and some of the houses had city hookups, others had tanks. I didn't look into the expense of trucking propane in but I suspect it's not cheap.

One thing I forgot to mention from earlier in the topic, a comment on using a steel plate as a pizza stone. That sounded like a pretty good idea, and I suspect the comment is accurate that a steel plate will heat more quickly than a pizza stone because it's more heat conductive.

The steel sounded like a good idea. Since I live in the big bad city there are places where I can get practically any kind of metal in any form, and cut to size if I want to pay the cutting charge (or sort through scraps for one that suits). The ideal size would probably be a couple inches less than the oven's horizontal dimensions. Perhaps 1/4 inch thick? I presume stainless steel would be the desired material?

It would probably be more expensive than a pizza stone, but certainly it would be indestructible!

 

[Andy M.]

Greg, the heat retention and porosity of a stone pizza stone is a key part of its benefit. Neither is there with a metal 'stone'. The porosity is important to draw moisture out of the dough to help produce a crispy crust. The heat retention, similar to a cast iron skillet, eliminates abrupt temperature changes. This is why most all pizza ovens are lined with a fire brick or other unglazed ceramic surface.

As to propane, I'm not sure of the cost but I know it requires modifications to your gas appliances to accommodate the higher BTU output you get from propane.

 

[taxlady]

I don't know for sure, but I think electricity is cheaper here in Quebec. We have a bunch of big hydro dams and natural gas comes from far away.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

Greg, the heat retention and porosity of a stone pizza stone is a key part of its benefit. Neither is there with a metal 'stone'. The porosity is important to draw moisture out of the dough to help produce a crispy crust. The heat retention, similar to a cast iron skillet, eliminates abrupt temperature changes. This is why most all pizza ovens are lined with a fire brick or other unglazed ceramic surface

My comments were based upon this post:

Since most clay and brick ovens have an active fire in them, they will always have the advantage of direct radiant heat from the fire source that speeds the heating and charring of the top of the pizza to help balance the intense heat of oven deck.

In a conventional oven the only radiant heat that reaches the top of the pizza is reflected from the oven walls an top, so the best placement of a pizza stone is high in the oven instead of the bottom. The high in the oven technique is advocated by both Cook’s Illustrated and Nathan Myhrvold in Modernist Cuisine. CI uses a conventional baking stone while Myhrvold uses a quarter inch steel plate cut to fit the oven. Since steel is a much better conductor of heat, it will preheat faster than ceramic and conduct heat into the pizza more efficiently for faster bottom browning. Using the broiler as a direct radiant heat source while the pizza is cooking is also recommended, but I think many broilers have upper limit shutoff that may interfere with the concept.

Either way, they key to properly cooked pizza is balance between top and bottom cooking. I get good results using my stone without the broiler when it is placed high in the oven so I am not quite ready to search for a 20 lb steel plate to improve my pizza, but since the steel plate will probably cost less than an a premium baking stone it is certainly a move worth considering.

It makes sense to me but I'm no expert. I've cooked pizza about two dozen times.

In any case even if either could be used I suspect that the steel plate would be more expensive than a pizza stone, maybe a lot more expensive. Steel is the sort of thing that companies using it in mass quantities can be economical in terms of cost and labor, but a consumer like me might find that getting a one-of-a-kind made could be more expensive than it's worth. Even if it was better.

I've heard of inexpensive pizza stones made from purchasing quarry tiles at a big box home improvement store, but I've also heard that some can be treated with toxic glazes or other toxic substances. Once again, sounds like a good idea to save money but probably a bad idea unless you know exactly what you're doing. (I don't.)

In any case I see several or a dozen pizza stones sold on Amazon for $13-$38 and several pizza stones sold at Bed, Bath & Beyond for $15-$50 (and one set for $125, probably over-kill) so I'm probably going to just eventually get one at Amazon or BBB. $20-$35 sounds like a reasonable price to pay. I like brick and mortar stores because you can go over and look at it, no surprises, the folks at BBB are very nice, and a 30 day satisfaction guaranteed full refund no questions asked. Plus, if you get the coupons it's 20% off!

 

[Addie]

My comments were based upon this post:
It makes sense to me but I'm no expert. I've cooked pizza about two dozen times.

I've heard of inexpensive pizza stones made from purchasing quarry tiles at a big box home improvement store, but I've also heard that some can be treated with toxic glazes or other toxic substances. Once again, sounds like a good idea to save money but probably a bad idea unless you know exactly what you're doing. (I don't.)

In any case I see several or a dozen pizza stones sold on Amazon for $13-$38 and several pizza stones sold at Bed, Bath & Beyond for $15-$50 (and one set for $125, probably over-kill) so I'm probably going to just eventually get one at Amazon or BBB. $20-$35 sounds like a reasonable price to pay. I like brick and mortar stores because you can go over and look at it, no surprises, the folks at BBB are very nice, and a 30 day satisfaction guaranteed full refund no questions asked. Plus, if you get the coupons it's 20% off!

The secret to purchasing these quarry tiles is to get the UNGLAZED ones. And get the white ones. Not the red ones. You will know the unglazed ones. They are the ones that have no shine on them. And they are rough to the touch.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

Addie it may be but I'm reluctant enough considering the toxic nature of some tiles, considering I'm not an expert, considering that the employees at the big box home improvement stores are experts in using their wares for their intended use, and finally considering that a pizza stone is not any major expense even at BBB, I think I'll just stick with something specifically made for baking pizzas.

Back to flour, anybody have any comments on what to use and whether it's worth the effort to get it, significant better pizza, or do you think my bread flour is good enough for beginner/intermediate home pizza chefs?

 

[Aunt Bea]

Back to flour, anybody have any comments on what to use and whether it's worth the effort to get it, significant better pizza, or do you think my bread flour is good enough for beginner/intermediate home pizza chefs?

IMHO regular AP flour does a good job and I am not willing to pay a premium for the small difference in the final result, what has made a big difference, at no cost, is making the dough or a batter and letting it ferment for one to three days. That extra step makes a big difference in flavor and texture.