Flour for making pizza

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What about bread flour vs. AP flour? I generally keep both on hand. I thought bread flour was better for pizza.

It's funny that of the the PBS programs I referred to earlier, one (using the Tipo 00, water, yeast and salt) made by a professional restauranter in New York City!!! :) let the dough rise for only an hour before cooking. Yet in the next or previous show they said to let it rise overnight. You're not the first I've heard say that three days is good. It appears there's a lot of disagreement about how long to let it rise, 1 hour to 3 days.

I'll experiment with all this stuff when I get back to having a decent kitchen.
 
What about bread flour vs. AP flour? I generally keep both on hand. I thought bread flour was better for pizza.

It's funny that of the the PBS programs I referred to earlier, one (using the Tipo 00, water, yeast and salt) made by a professional restauranter in New York City!!! :) let the dough rise for only an hour before cooking. Yet in the next or previous show they said to let it rise overnight. You're not the first I've heard say that three days is good. It appears there's a lot of disagreement about how long to let it rise, 1 hour to 3 days.

I'll experiment with all this stuff when I get back to having a decent kitchen.


I only use AP flour because I don't like to have various kinds of expensive flour going stale in my cupboard. If I did more baking then I might use specialty flour. I make great pizza with a one hour rise but, I think the taste of a room temperature fermented dough takes it up a notch or two. I don't think it is about a right or wrong way to make a pizza it is just many different ways to make a pizza.
 
I'm not saying my way is the only way or best way. Just that it works for me. I like my pizza most of the time.

I just bought a ceramic pizza stone for $50 that includes a material that is advertised to prevent thermal shock and as a result, less likelihood it will crack. It resides on the bottom of my oven.

Right now the top and bottom of my pizza seem to cook at the same rate so I don't feel I have to adjust.

I always take Cooks Illustrated/Americas Test Kitchen claims that they discovered the absolute best way to make a dish with some skepticism. When you are back in a home with an oven, you should experiment.
 
On the issue of flour. I started out with a Tyler Florence recipe for pizza dough made with AP flour. It worked great. Then I switched to bread flour on the theory that the higher protein content would yield a chewier crust.

On the other hand, type 00 flour is lower in protein content (less than 10%) than AP flour so I guess it depends on what you want from your crust.
 
Thanks for the interesting replies!

I only use AP flour because I don't like to have various kinds of expensive flour going stale in my cupboard. If I did more baking then I might use specialty flour. I make great pizza with a one hour rise but, I think the taste of a room temperature fermented dough takes it up a notch or two. I don't think it is about a right or wrong way to make a pizza it is just many different ways to make a pizza.
Bread flour won't go stale in my kitchen! I just love focaccia bread and I've got a basic recipe that I add a changing variety of ingredients and enjoy the results often enough that my bread flour never goes bad.

I'm piqued by your comment that you like room temperature fermented dough, an hour. If an hour is good would more time be better? What's the limit? (IMO probably 24 hours is the maximum I'd let bread ferment at room temperature, but I'm no authority on this.)

I'm not saying my way is the only way or best way. Just that it works for me. I like my pizza most of the time.
I like my pizza all the time! Yeah I make good and better, and maybe haven't made excellent yet, but there's just something about home cooked anything that makes me really enjoy it. I like dining in casual situations too. They won't let you take your shoes off in a restaurant! :D

I just bought a ceramic pizza stone for $50 that includes a material that is advertised to prevent thermal shock and as a result, less likelihood it will crack. It resides on the bottom of my oven.

Right now the top and bottom of my pizza seem to cook at the same rate so I don't feel I have to adjust.
Like the saying goes, "Don't fix what ain't broken!" If it's working for you there is of course no reason to change.

I was intrigued by the pizza I saw on a few of the PBS shows I referred to earlier. I was intrigued by the pizzas that had a really delicious looking browned crust and it looked kind of bubbly in places (in a good way). My own pizzas come out more uniformly flat and I've never paid any particular attention to the edges. That's something I'd like to experiment with.

I always take Cooks Illustrated/Americas Test Kitchen claims that they discovered the absolute best way to make a dish with some skepticism. When you are back in a home with an oven, you should experiment.
Of course I don't believe everything I see on TV or read on the Internet, but I've found some fascinating ideas, tips and recipes on America's Test Kitchen, and everything they've said in areas that I'm good at agrees with my own knowledge. They always have good reasons for all the things I never thought of before.

One thing I liked about ATK's pizza episode was that the recipes for dough and topping were extremely straightforward, and when they were done the crust looked nice and wasn't saggy like some pizza I've even. Maybe the pizza stone on the top shelf wasn't the secret of it but it worked well for them.

Looking at it differently, why not put the pizza stone on the top shelf? I wouldn't put it on the floor of the oven just because there's usually a bit of grime or soot there and I'd rather not get that on the stone, so it looks like the choices are top shelf or bottom shelf.

(And that's not withstanding what was mentioned above, if what you're doing works then obviously there's no reason to change.)

On the issue of flour. I started out with a Tyler Florence recipe for pizza dough made with AP flour. It worked great. Then I switched to bread flour on the theory that the higher protein content would yield a chewier crust.

On the other hand, type 00 flour is lower in protein content (less than 10%) than AP flour so I guess it depends on what you want from your crust.
But did the bread flour yield a chewier crust like you expected? It's been a while since I cooked pizza and mostly what I remember now is that I enjoyed my pizza. I used bread flour. Would there be any reason to expect that AP would work better than bread flour?

That's interesting about the protein content, and of we all know that bread flour is higher. Maybe it's not protein that's important. I've heard bread flour makes better gluten, but maybe that's on account of the protein content.

I'm just asking questions here. The discussion has been interesting and I enjoy hearing the different opinions.
 
Greg,

I was not being clear.

I make good pizza dough with a one hour rise.

I think it is better if you make a poolish and let it ferment at room temperature for a day or two. Then make the dough.

You can also make the dough and let it ripen in the fridge for a two or three days but, I prefer it when it is done at room temperature.
 
Bea thank you! It's not often that I hear a new term and new concept related to cooking. Google and Wikipedia are my friends and I've spent a few minutes reading up. I realize now that in some ways it's like sourdough starter (although I myself am not a sourdough fan). I like the idea of making a poolish (maybe 50:50 water: flour, yeast, and do you use sugar?) and then let it sit for 1-2 days, then make your one hour pizza dough.

I'll have to try both ways (poolish vs. refrigerator rise). It will be delicious to find out which is best, or at least to find out which I prefer.
 
Greg, the heat retention and porosity of a stone pizza stone is a key part of its benefit. Neither is there with a metal 'stone'. The porosity is important to draw moisture out of the dough to help produce a crispy crust. The heat retention, similar to a cast iron skillet, eliminates abrupt temperature changes. This is why most all pizza ovens are lined with a fire brick or other unglazed ceramic surface.

Considering the 500 degree operating temperature of a baking stone, it is not drawing moisture out of the pizza or absorbing moisture from the dough that sits atop it. It is conducting plenty of BTU’s to the bottom of pizza, but a steel, aluminum, or cast iron can do the same thing with a faster preheat than ceramics. The thermal mass of a pizza "stone" is much more important than its material.
 
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Jim is right. I didn't think it through. A pizza stone isn't going to "draw" any moisture out of a pizza at 500 degrees. Any moisture present at that temperature will flash directly to water vapor--a gas--and mix with the other hot oven gasses. I can't imagine any type of stone or steel can have any other effect than conducting heat directly into the bottom of the pizza. The better the conductivity the better the heat transfer. The better the thermal mass the more heat can be stored in the stone or steel. Any thermal mass insufficiently low will result in a drop in cooking temperature and presumably inferior cooking, although I presume properly designed stones and steels are selected to have sufficient thermal mass.

What do they use in commercial ovens? What do they use in pizzerias? Even if they all use stones it could be because it's tradition.
 
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There is a big difference between AP
and bread flour. The flavor and oven spring are not the same.

Aunt Bea, if you are looking for a cheap great tasting bread flour try the Gold Medal "better for bread flour" sold at Walmart. I can get a 5 lb sack here for $2.80.
 
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Jim is right. I didn't think it through. A pizza stone isn't going to "draw" any moisture out of a pizza at 500 degrees. Any moisture present at that temperature will flash directly to water vapor--a gas--and mix with the other hot oven gasses. I can't imagine any type of stone or steel can have any other effect than conducting heat directly into the bottom of the pizza. The better the conductivity the better the heat transfer. The better the thermal mass the more heat can be stored in the stone or steel. Any thermal mass insufficiently low will result in a drop in cooking temperature and presumably inferior cooking, although I presume properly designed stones and steels are selected to have sufficient thermal mass.

What do they use in commercial ovens? What do they use in pizzerias? Even if they all use stones it could be because it's tradition.


Here's how I picture it. When the raw crust dough hits the hot stone, the moisture in the dough is vaporized by the heat (turned to steam). It's trapped between the dough and the pizza bottom. Either it stays there longer and effects the crust with its moisture or some escapes into the pores of the stone.

If the steam is trapped, the crust won't dry and cannot start browning and crisping. Think about how we are always instructed to dry meat before browning to improve the process.

From what I've read, seen, heard, commercial pizza ovens are lined with some sort of brick/firebrick/refractory brick.
 
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Certainly you don't want the steam to be trapped.

OK commercial pizza ovens are lined with brick, but what is the cooking surface the pizza sits on? Also brick?
 
There is a big difference between AP
and bread flour. The flavor and oven spring are not the same.

Aunt Bea, if you are looking for a cheap great tasting bread flour try the Gold Medal "better for bread flour" sold at Walmart. I can get a 5 lb sack here for $2.80.

Thanks for the tip!
 
Can somebody explain to me what the poolish is in a simple terms, please. I googled it, but still don't get it.
 
Jim is right. I didn't think it through. A pizza stone isn't going to "draw" any moisture out of a pizza at 500 degrees. Any moisture present at that temperature will flash directly to water vapor--a gas--and mix with the other hot oven gasses. I can't imagine any type of stone or steel can have any other effect than conducting heat directly into the bottom of the pizza. The better the conductivity the better the heat transfer. The better the thermal mass the more heat can be stored in the stone or steel. Any thermal mass insufficiently low will result in a drop in cooking temperature and presumably inferior cooking, although I presume properly designed stones and steels are selected to have sufficient thermal mass.

What do they use in commercial ovens? What do they use in pizzerias? Even if they all use stones it could be because it's tradition.
The Little Caesars 'round the corner from me uses cast iron pans.
 
Can somebody explain to me what the poolish is in a simple terms, please. I googled it, but still don't get it.
Poolish is french for Polish. Its a type of preferment where I take some of the flour,half of the yeast and all of the water (this is not the classic method) mix and leave in a cool place for 24 hrs then add the remaining ingredients.:)
 
Yes, the whole inside of the oven is lined with the same material.

I have worked at 3 diff pizza places when I was in college. All 3 used thin aluminum pans because they outline the size of the pizza, they easily slide in and out of the pizza oven (which has a very small opening, height wise), and they heat up quickly. The dough was never laid directly on the firebrick. Unsanitary to say the least. But thin metal conducts heat quicker than an unheated stone, and a holey pan or a screen lets the moisture escape quickly.

Now to cooking at home... I prefer to make my dough at least 24 hours in advance, and I "feel like" 3 days in the fridge is better. I often make the dough, put it in a ziploc bag in the fridge, then into the freezer for 2-3 months ( but they NEVER last that long!! ). When we want pizza, we take the dough out the night before to thaw in the fridge, then take it out of the fridge 2-3 hours before making to come to room temp for handling.

I have a pampered chef pizza stone. If I preheat it, I get crispier pizza crust. If not, I get chewier crust (everyone loves the supreme cooked this way), and for my BBQ chicken pizza, I prefer a thin, holeyy metal round pizza pan. Makes for a nice, crispy crust. And I have learned to cook one pizza at a time on 550* on top shelf... But if I MUST cook 2 at once, the stone goes on the lower rack, or else the metal pan burns while the stone under cooks.

To do a stone pizza properly, one needs to preheat the stone, and a peel to transfer the pizza onto it. If using a cold stone, I just slap out my dough and make the pizza directly on the stone itself.

Many who have eaten my pizza tell me it's better than anything in the restaurant. Fresh ingredients and letting the dough "proof" for at least 24-72 hours is what I feel is the secret. That and MINIMAL tomato sauce. I have made the dough and cooked it right away, and it is also good... But slapping out fresh dough is not as easy. Letting it proof at least an hour is preferable.
 
I have worked at 3 diff pizza places when I was in college. All 3 used thin aluminum pans because they outline the size of the pizza, they easily slide in and out of the pizza oven (which has a very small opening, height wise), and they heat up quickly. The dough was never laid directly on the firebrick. Unsanitary to say the least. But thin metal conducts heat quicker than an unheated stone, and a holey pan or a screen lets the moisture escape quickly.

A lot of pizza joints use screens because it is much easier for people to handle the pies going into the oven.

I can't imagine why you would think it is unsanitary for the pizza to touch the brick when these ovens run 700-800F, what is gonna survive that for more than a fraction of a second?
 
I have eaten at dozens of diff pizza joints and they don't use pans at all. I prefer NY style pizzas with a thin chewy crust.

Gas fired pizza ovens with a ceramic floor. The pizza is built on the peel and slid off the peel onto the oven floor.
 
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