New Baker - Focaccia, Pizza Dough, and Troubles.

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swinchen

Cook
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
98
Location
USA,Maine
So recently I have become infatuated with bread. There is a little restaurant in my home town (Rockland Maine) called Cafe Miranda that makes the most amazing flat bread. I am not sure if it focaccia, or some other type but it is really "tuggy" You need to grab ahold of it and really pull to get a bite. It is amazing when dipped in olive oil and balsamic. Does this sound like focaccia to you? What other really really chewy flat breads are out there? I need to find some way to make something similar! I don't have a wood fired brick oven... so I know I can't get it exact.

So.... I thought to myself "I want to make bread" so I went and bought The Bread Baker's Apprentice: Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread by Peter Reinhart. Well I tried making his pizza dough recipe and everything seemed to be going ok until this step....

I was told to flatten each dough ball into a 5 inch circle and let rest on the counter for two hours.

Well... when I tried to pick the dough up after two hours it was IMPOSSIBLE to form it wasn't elastic enough and sort of ran, or stretched as soon as I picked it up. I couldnt turn it fast enough to make a circle it was just a nightmare. Do you think that perhaps the dough was too wet? I think I really need to get an electric mixer and a digital scale to make really excellent bread, but I am just a poor student.

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Swinchen, I feel your infatuation. And I've hiked all over Mt. Katadin and have enjoyed your coastal town. Ah, the land of Winslow Homer. Welcome!

I'm not going to be of much help here, as there are SO many here who are, IMO, bread authorities that have taught me much. But I'll offer a link to a site I was recommended to here and have learned much from, as well.

http://www.theartisan.net/

For Focaccia, and I think you're right on about the "tugginess", look for Focaccia di Tre Farine - Per La Casa (Three Flour Foccacia - Home Version) on the index. I've made it and it is SOOO good.
 
The digital scale is a must. As for an electric (stand) mixer, it is an astonishingly useful tool, but not strictly a necessity for bread, and it is actually easier for the beginner to knead by hand, in any case.

There are two reasons I can think of for your problem. One is that you did not use enough flour. This is, of course, unlikely if you followed the numbers in the recipe, but not impossible. I have actually noticed some brands of flour, pound for pound, just don't provide the same substance as others, and require more to do the same job. If the dough is a sticky paste and does not form a ball, then there is not enough flour.

The second, more probable explanation is that you didn't knead the dough adequately. It needs to be kneaded long enough that it is smooth, elastic, and coherent. If the ball of dough just sort of collapses and spreads out when you put it in the bowl or on the bench to rise, then it is not kneaded properly.
 
jasonr said:
The digital scale is a must. As for an electric (stand) mixer, it is an astonishingly useful tool, but not strictly a necessity for bread, and it is actually easier for the beginner to knead by hand, in any case.

There are two reasons I can think of for your problem. One is that you did not use enough flour. This is, of course, unlikely if you followed the numbers in the recipe, but not impossible. I have actually noticed some brands of flour, pound for pound, just don't provide the same substance as others, and require more to do the same job. If the dough is a sticky paste and does not form a ball, then there is not enough flour.

The second, more probable explanation is that you didn't knead the dough adequately. It needs to be kneaded long enough that it is smooth, elastic, and coherent. If the ball of dough just sort of collapses and spreads out when you put it in the bowl or on the bench to rise, then it is not kneaded properly.

Ahh thanks for the pointers! I don't think I kneaded it enough. I should have mentioned that I used high gluten flour from a health food dtore (not sure of the brand). I had a really really hard time kneading the bread by hand because it was SO sticky that I couldn't really do anything with it. The author suggested that I dip my hand in cold water repeatedly. Well I did that, and each time I dipped I managed to get one good twist of the dough... but then it would stick again. So I guess it might be a combination of both! If I dipped my hand too many times in the water, that all gets added to the dough... plus I only kneaded for a few minutes (because it was so sticky). I think the mixer would really help me because I wouldnt have to knead such a sticky dough!
 
Audeo said:
Swinchen, I feel your infatuation. And I've hiked all over Mt. Katadin and have enjoyed your coastal town. Ah, the land of Winslow Homer. Welcome!

I'm not going to be of much help here, as there are SO many here who are, IMO, bread authorities that have taught me much. But I'll offer a link to a site I was recommended to here and have learned much from, as well.

http://www.theartisan.net/

For Focaccia, and I think you're right on about the "tugginess", look for Focaccia di Tre Farine - Per La Casa (Three Flour Foccacia - Home Version) on the index. I've made it and it is SOOO good.

Thanks for the site. It looks quite nice. It is a shame they don't include bakers percentages though. I guess it would be easy enough to form from the mass/weight measure.
 
Swinchen - why not just call up Cafe Miranda and ask them about the bread you enjoyed there? I'm sure they would be happy to tell you what kind it was. I know that sounds like a simplistic approach - but sometimes the simple answer is overlooked.

jasonr is so right - if your recipe gives you weights, use them! Depending on how you scoop out your flour - you can double or halve the weight per volume. I also agree that it sounds like you didn't use enough flour ... perhaps you were not using bench flour ... but a pizza dough (or bread dough in most cases) should be smooth and elastic - not a sticky mess.

Another thing you mentioned was that you got some high gluten flour from the health food store. Bread flour is a high gluten flour and you can get that at the grocery store. But, what did the recipe call for?

Cookery is an art where you can make substitutions and change amounts from the recipe without too much of a problem ... but in baking you are dealing with scientific formulas. Follow the recipe exactly the first few times until you learn the feel of the dough ... then experiment with changing things.

I'm making these suggestions from experience ... trust me, my first loaf of bread was a total disaster! But, I did have a couple of unigue door stops :LOL:
 
"I should have mentioned that I used high gluten flour from a health food dtore (not sure of the brand)."

For pizza dough, this is not such a bad thing, but I would not make high gluten flour your everyday flour. Use a flour with between 10 and 12% protein as your all-purpose bread flour. Also, perhaps you should avoid the health-food stuff for now. These health food stores tend to sell weird and impractical products not appropriate for real baking. Perhaps you should buy your flour at the grocery store, at least for now. Who knows? The health food stuff may be some bizarre specialty flour not appropriate for practical use, and this may even be the source of your problem. These health food guys are more interested in fancy labels and fluff than actual baking.

"I had a really really hard time kneading the bread by hand because it was SO sticky that I couldn't really do anything with it. The author suggested that I dip my hand in cold water repeatedly. Well I did that, and each time I dipped I managed to get one good twist of the dough... but then it would stick again. So I guess it might be a combination of both! If I dipped my hand too many times in the water, that all gets added to the dough... plus I only kneaded for a few minutes (because it was so sticky). I think the mixer would really help me because I wouldnt have to knead such a sticky dough!"

When you mix the flour into the wet mixture, be sure to reserve a few handfuls for kneading. If you mix in all of your flour immediately, you will have none left over for kneading, and the dough will probably be too sticky to knead. You must resist the temptation of throwing on extra flour; If you add more flour than the recipe provides for, then you run the risk of producing a tasteless loaf. I don't know about the cold water method, as I have never seen it mentioned in any of my books. I would think that this would add water to the loaf, which would not be a good thing.

You would think that machine kneading would be easier than hand kneading, but in practice, it is the opposite. I don't know exactly why, but for some reason, the machine seems to inevitably turn the dough sticky, even if you add the full amount of flour. By contrast, if you knead by hand, it is more difficult to fully integrate the flour into the dough, and it seems to stay more at the surface, which makes it less sticky and easier to work with.
 
Wow lots of info here!

Ok...

The recipe said "Stir together the flour, salt, and instant yeast" So I added all the flour the recipe called for. I assumed that bench flour would be in addition to the flour for the recipe? it goes on... "if you are mixing by hand, repeatedly dip one of your hands or the metal spoon into cold water and use it, much like a dough hook, to work the dough vigorously into a smooth mass while rotating the bowl in a circular motion with the other hand. Reverse the circular motion a few times to develop the gluten further." So I did this, or tried to... it was so dang sticky the dough just clung to my hand and when I ripped it off it left little pieces handing onto my skin. I thought I was doing something wrong, but the book says "The finished dough will be springy, elastic, and sticky, not jsut tacky, and register 50 - 55 degrees F" Well my dough was certainly sticky. The book mentions that the dough should stick the bottom of the bown, but not the sides. Mine might have been sticking to the sides a bit.

I only used high gluten flour because this is what the recipe used. Plus there is something about a bread (focaccia or pizza) that you need to tug on really hard to eat that I just love. My two key goals are flavor, and tugginess.

I would call Cafe Miranda, but the fear of rejection has always bothered me :) That and I am afraid I would ask something stupid like "Can I have the recipe?" Perhaps I should call them though and just see what sort of hints I can get.

Interesting thing about this dough... there is no bench kneading... everything is done in the bowl (until dividing) So I am not sure how I would add the bench flour. When I divided the dough I was instructed to sprinkle flour on the work surface, dump the dough down. Then I had to divide the dough with a dough blade dipped in cold water, and then dust the surface of each piece before rolling into a ball. This part caused me a TON of frustration as well. One I floured the pieces it was almost imposible to form the little buggers into a ball. I rolled and rolled but each ball had a crease where the flour prevented it from forming together. I must admit I got a little frustrated and sort of squished the balls up and then rolled them into a nice sphere. I don't think that is how I was supose to do it though.

Dough sort of makes me angry.... you read a book, it looks easy. You watch a TV show, it looks easy. These perfect little blobs the do exactly what they should. Then you go and try it and the little buggers are a nightmare. I just hope I can get it before I get too frustrated.

I tried my best to follow it exactly. But I didn;t have a scale which I think might be a really bad thing. Maybe I should go pick one up.


Thanks for the help :)
 
Oh by the way...

http://www.cafemiranda.com/

Here is the website for Cafe Miranda. It is without a doubt my favorite place to eat. Fresh made pasta, homemade sausage... oh man!

p.s. if you reload the page enough you will get to see one of the chefs removing what I call "chewy bread" from the oven. It doesnt look like much, but I bet it could win awards.

-- edit --

http://www.cafemiranda.com/images/pht7.jpg

A direct link to the picture of the bread :)
 
jasonr - I have seen the "wet hand" technique mentioned a few times. All I can figure out is that it keeps the surface of the dough slichtly tacky so that you can develop some friction ... especially on a slick surface like glass, marble, stainless steel, formica counter tops or pastry boards. I use a wooden board and the bench flour method without any problems.

Using a stand mixer for kneading depends on the mixer - some will knead and some will not. Mixers (Hobart, KitchenAid, etc.) with a single dough hook and a planitary motion head (the bowl is stationary) will do a good job of kneading the dough. A mixer with double dough-hooks and a revolving bowl, such as a Sunbeam Mixmaster and other brands of that design, will only mix the dough - you have to knead it by hand. I have a KitchenAid and I let it do most of the work .... but I still finish with about a minute of hand kneading on a very slightly floured wooden board to put the finishing touches on it.
 
Audeo said:
Swinchen, I feel your infatuation. And I've hiked all over Mt. Katadin and have enjoyed your coastal town. Ah, the land of Winslow Homer. Welcome!

audeo, what haven't you done!!!!!!!!
 
hi swinchen

hi swinchen

Welcome to this forum. You will find many experienced and helpful bakers here.

I can only say "I second that!" to the comments already posted. Adjectives are always hard to decipher, but it does sound as tho your dough was too wet and/or insufficiently kneaded.

When you said that
I should have mentioned that I used high gluten flour from a health food store (not sure of the brand). I had a really really hard time kneading the bread by hand because it was SO sticky that I couldn't really do anything with it
I just want to make sure that this was really a "high gluten" flour (13.5-16% gluten) and not what's marketed as "gluten" or "vital wheat gluten" flour which is 40-80% gluten. Vital wheat gluten is really an additive (since the "flour" is produced by removing the starch from the endosperm of the wheat grain) and would certainly make for a wet or sticky dough since it does not absorb water/liquid readily.

Other sites you may find helpful are www.baking911.com and ww2.kingarthurflour.com - especially the "guides" part of the "flour for professional bakers" section http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/97269.1.1631792993621472787

I would urge you to get an accurate scale for your bread making. Using a machine to knead dough is (IMHO) more a matter of personal preference. I am a fan of doing the final kneading (and small flour adjustments) by hand, as this educates you to the "feel" of the final dough for the type of bread you want to make.
 
Swinchen, your recipe sounds extremely diffficult and weird. Here's the Williams Sonoma pizza dough recipe I always use. One of the things I like about WS is that although they are not necessarily the best recipes you can find, their recipes are always at least of decent quality, and are totally reliable. (They're like the Sony of baking) The nice thing about this pizza dough is that there's tons of leeway in terms of adding extra flour, and it's almost impossible to screw up.

1 package active dry yeast *(2.5 TSP)
1 1/8 Cups/280 ML warm water (105F-115F / 40C - 46C)
1 Tsp. malt syrup or sugar
1/8 Cup (30 ML / 2 TBSP) Olive oil
2.5 Cups (12.5 oz. /380 g) bread flour, plus up to 1/2 extra cup for kneading
1.5 Tsp. Sea Salt

*I notice you use instant yeast; to substitute instant for AD, use 2/3 the amount of AD specified above, which is about 1 2/3 Tsp.*

1. In a large bowl, dissolve the yeast in the warm water and let stand until foamy, about 5 minutes. Using a wooden spoon, mix in the malt syrup, oil, salt, and then flour.
2. Knead until soft, smooth, and elastic. (about 8-10 minutes) If the dough is sticky, use some of the 1/2 cup reserve flour to keep from sticking. Lightly oil a large bowl, and place the dough in the bowl. Cover with plastic wrap, and let rise in a warm draft-free spot until doubled in volume, approximately 80-120 minutes. Us poor amateurs don't have fancy proof-boxes like the professionals, so the next best thing is a cold oven with the pilot light turned on, or the inside of a microwave oven, with the light on.
3. Punch down the dough. For a more flavorful crust, make the dough up until this point, and leave it in the refrigerator overnight. Be sure to bring the dough to room temperature before shaping

Anyway, that's the gist of it. I didn't have the patience to copy the instructions verbatim, so I left out the baking and shaping instructions, plus the actual toppings. Shaping pizza dough can be a bitch, especially if you need to transfer it from your work surface to a baking stone in the oven without mangling your dough and its toppings. If you need any pointers, let me know.
 
Re: hi swinchen

subfuscpersona said:
I just want to make sure that this was really a "high gluten" flour (13.5-16% gluten) and not what's marketed as "gluten" or "vital wheat gluten" flour which is 40-80% gluten. Vital wheat gluten is really an additive (since the "flour" is produced by removing the starch from the endosperm of the wheat grain) and would certainly make for a wet or sticky dough since it does not absorb water/liquid readily.

Other sites you may find helpful are www.baking911.com and ww2.kingarthurflour.com - especially the "guides" part of the "flour for professional bakers" section http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/97269.1.1631792993621472787

I would urge you to get an accurate scale for your bread making. Using a machine to knead dough is (IMHO) more a matter of personal preference. I am a fan of doing the final kneading (and small flour adjustments) by hand, as this educates you to the "feel" of the final dough for the type of bread you want to make.

The bin I got the flour out of said "high gluten flour" I have to say, with the gluten flour I was at least able to form the windows baker pane easily. With King Arthurs bread flour I could never really get a pane to form.

Maybe the book I have isn't great? It got really good reviews. I think it is more likely that I am still really new to this and I don't have the right tools for the job.

So what bread books does everyone recommend? I want one that goes by mass or weight (like the one I have now) and bakers percentages so I can size the batch to my needs (easily).

Also any scale recommendations? Here are two I am looking at... I know they are a little overkill for cooking, but I also want to make rocket fuel someday. Not a lot unlike baking really :)

http://scales.net/mn_prods/x5000/exp5000x_summ.php
http://www.rightonscales.com/web/i2600.htm

I guess if I am going just for a cooking/baking scale I could get:
http://www.rightonscales.com/web/kd-600.htm
and save a ton of money.
 
hi swinchen

swinchen said:
The bin I got the flour out of said "high gluten flour" I have to say, with the gluten flour I was at least able to form the windows baker pane easily. With King Arthurs bread flour I could never really get a pane to form.
From the performance it was labeled correctly. If you're buying from an open bin and aren't confident about the store, you can always ask the manager to show you the sack the flour came in so you can read the label. If you don't mind risking ticking him/her off, you can also ask about storage conditions, date of purchase, turnover, etc.

swinchen said:
Maybe the book I have isn't great? It got really good reviews. I think it is more likely that I am still really new to this and I don't have the right tools for the job.

So what bread books does everyone recommend? I want one that goes by mass or weight (like the one I have now) and bakers percentages so I can size the batch to my needs (easily).

Also any scale recommendations? Here are two I am looking at... I know they are a little overkill for cooking, but I also want to make rocket fuel someday. Not a lot unlike baking really :)

re scales >
I did look at the scales you mentioned. The cooking/baking scale is fine for bread baking - as for ?!rocket fuel?!?! - sheesh! - who am I to say? Maybe the scale you already have is perfectly suitable - conversion between oz and gm , tare function and accurate to 1gm should be fine. Of course you need a scale for a recipe that gives ingredient amounts by weight but more importantly (for me, at least) is the ability to convert a recipe that gives measurements by volume back to weight, especially the flour, oil and sweetener ingredients (the Reinhart book is fine for different kinds of salt and/or yeast).

re cookbooks/recipes >
Experience is the best teacher (making bread with someone whose baking you respect is also great) - so just make bread! If you're a beginner (I'm not sure you are) pick one or two recipes you like and keep making them until you've mastered them. Then take that recipe you've mastered and vary it.

I prefer cookbooks that explain things instead of just giving formulas. The 'net is also your friend if you learn to look at information with a critical eye. Newsgroups like alt.bread.recipes and rec.food.sourdough (you can get to them via google groups) have endless chatter about bread-making.

a few other "tips" that have worked for me...
> Do the final kneading by hand to hone that irreplaceable knowledge of how the dough should feel for the type of bread you're making.
> Let time work for you. Don't (at least while you're learning) try to speed up or control the timing of the rise - in general, good bread should not be rushed during the fermenting period (one reason I like Reinhart's book).
> Jot down notes each time on your ingredients, equipment, process and results so you build up a knowledge base of what worked (and, equally important, what didn't) for you.
> Don't be afraid of failures - the basic ingredients for bread are so cheap you can afford to experiment.
> Use the computer to preserve notes, for measurement conversion and calculating bakers percentage.

re equipment > You don't need a lot of expensive equipment to make good bread. You probably already have everything you need. You have a scale - thermometers and misters are cheap. Equipment that kneads the dough for you is nice but not required. You have an oven - learn it's quirks! If you want to spend money, your oven is the first place I'd start - a good stone or (if those coins are burning a hole in your pocket) possibly an oven insert (see http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...sr_1_1/102-7319618-4211350?v=glance&s=kitchen).

I'd never heard of an oven insert until someone mentioned it here at discusscooking. I am positively green with envy and wish I could afford it - would love to hear from members who've used it.

swinchen - I know I've babbled on. Please do keep us posted on your bread-making.
 
buckytom said:
Audeo said:
Swinchen, I feel your infatuation. And I've hiked all over Mt. Katadin and have enjoyed your coastal town. Ah, the land of Winslow Homer. Welcome!

audeo, what haven't you done!!!!!!!!

Ahem. Learned to keep my mouth shut....!
;)
 
I agree with jasonr the recipe you are using sounds really complicated. I use either Nigella Lawson's basic white bread recipe or Delia Smith's - they are both very similar, basically flour, yeast, water and oil or butter, that's it.

I have scales but very cheap ones, not digital, due to budgetary constraints, and knead by hand, as I haven't had the funds to get myself a proper mixer like a kitchenaid.

Basically, patience, practice and patience will get you there in the end, don't give up, and keep trying different techniques. I have learnt a lot about breadmaking in the past year, mostly thanks to this site, and folks like Old Coot and Wayne T. Bread making is a really individual thing, a bit like finding religion! You take bits, put em together, and eventually find what works for you. Most of all, enjoy the journey as much as the destination.
 
Thanks for all the help!

I too like Reinhart's book because it exaplains all the steps. I really think I must have messed it up by not weighing my ingredients. Perhaps the local bed bath and beyond has a cheapo scale. I dont really feel like spending a ton on one. As for a mixing machine... I don't know. I really want one, but everyone ehre seems to think hand kneading is the way to go. All I know is I hate it when the dough sticks to your hand and you have to scrape it off... that really drives me crazy. That is also why I didnt knead my pizza dough too long.

Winslow Homer you say? Wyeth is much more popular around these parts.
 
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