At what point can you claim a recipe as 'Your Own'?

[Mad Cook]

Im sure we've had this conversation before.

If you start with a recipe ( that has been published in a cookbook, website...), and you:
-Change some of the ingredients ( add some/ take away some)
-Mess with the amounts ( doubling/ halving initial amounts)
-Change cooking methods and times

How much of this has to change before you can actually or I guess should say ' legally' claim it as 'your own' recipe ??

Not that Im planning on publishing any of my recipes, but sometimes I look back at what i started with, and the final result, and they are unrecognizable to each other. Maybe the original recipe looks like a distant cousin or just an inspiration to the final creation.

I would never want to take any credit away from anyone, but at some point, I would have to think that the recipe becomes your own, since most of what we do when we cook is based on past experiences ( whether it be something we've seen, read, tasted ...)

Just curious,

Larry

Many years ago I started with a recipe for a fruit cake from Delia Smith's Book of Cakes. I've now made it so many times with so many changes that it is no longer anything like the original so I call it my own recipe.

There are recipes like the English cake called a Victoria sponge which involved 2 ounces each of self-raising flour, sugar and butter to each egg (depending on how big you want the cake). There seems to be no copyright on the recipe as it appears in every book on cakes printed in English and I expect the name of its inventor is lost in the mists of time.

And then there is the British cookery "celebrity" who shamelessly copies other writers' recipes, word for word, without any acknowledgement at all.

I did read that in America the ingredients can't be copyrighted but the method is copyright. I don't know if this is correct but if it is it sounds a bit odd to me. Would make more sense if it was the other way round, I think.

I think you'd really need to take legal advice on this as a mistake could cost you more than you make on sales of the book.

 

[Mad Cook]

Interesting question!

A quick sidetrack recalling my days as a moderator. You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions.

I realize that's not what you asked but it can provide a framework. I think we all fiddle a little with recipes, even if it's just to add more salt. I think you'd have to do more than that to own a recipe. For example, changing a significant ingredient or two and fiddling with the herbs and spices.

Changing the process is probably less common. If you're making a stew, how much can you change the instructions?

I guess if the chef that wrote the original recipe tastes yours and recognizes it, it's not your own yet.

"You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions." I'd read that before and thought it a bit odd. The precise method for making a particular type of cake, for example, is surely in the public domain and has often been so for a century or more but all cooks play about with ingredients

I'm inclined to think that your last sentence is right.

 

[Andy M.]

"You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions." I'd read that before and thought it a bit odd. The precise method for making a particular type of cake, for example, is surely in the public domain and has often been so for a century or more but all cooks play about with ingredients

I'm inclined to think that your last sentence is right.

It may seem odd to you, but it is accurate. It doesn't have to make sense, it's the law.

 

[Mad Cook]

It may seem odd to you, but it is accurate. It doesn't have to make sense, it's the law.

Well, yes!

 

[Cooking4to]

I think there are so many recipes that its almost impossible to come out with something absolutely new.. As far as calling something your own, if you make it the first time "by the book" and then figure it needs a little more of this less of that and add raisins, then its yours as far as I am concerned, you made it your own... That may not be legal to go copy someones book and call it your own because you put 10% more sugar in each recipe...

I use a recipe for pastry dough that is tough to make and a friend of mine showed me, you freeze everything, the mixer bowl, hook, use ice water with fine crushed slush, sift, dehydrate and freeze the flour, butter as cold as you can get it without freezing it..

And there are a few other steps, but the result is the most light flaky pastry crust you have ever seen in your life... Someone should copyright it... Anyway my buddy calls it his own..

 

[mattdee1]

I’m not so much concerned about legal matters because I’m not in the business of selling anything related to food, but I have struggled with this question in the past, as it relates to whether or not I’m justified in telling my friends/family that the recipe is “mine” vs. something I found on a website or in a cookbook.

Lots of my most successful meals have started with reading recipes on the internet, reading the reviews of that recipe (if available), getting the “gist” of what is going on, and then just doing it my own way, by adding/deleting/substituting ingredients, using alternative cooking methods, etc. I mean, how exact are most print recipes anyway? I bet most of them—the good ones, anyway—come from talented/experienced cooks attempting to put down on paper their best approximation of the seat-of-the-pants approach they would use when making a given dish, and as such, I see no point whatsoever in getting out the measuring spoon when a recipe calls for half a teaspoon of cumin or a tablespoon of soy sauce (for example). Yes, I know there are examples where exact measurements matter; I’m simply saying that oftentimes they do not, and adhering to them may actually do more harm than good.

I remember eating at a trendy Thai restaurant in San Francisco a few months ago, and there was a quote written on the wall, attributed to Marcel Boulestin. It has stuck with me since:

“Cookery is not chemistry. It is an art. It requires instinct and taste rather than exact measurements.”

I took a photo of it so I wouldn’t forget it. Words to live by, right there.

I catalog all of my recipes in Microsoft OneNote, and it’s revolutionized my kitchen “workflow” in all of its facets, from searching to organizing to shopping. Every recipe has its own “journal” tucked behind it with comments and photos documenting every instance of the recipe. By making notes like “This time, I did such-and-such and it ended up perfect” or “I followed the recipe on salt and thought it was too much”, etc., I eventually zero in on a favored approach that may only loosely resemble the original print recipe. In those cases, I go guilt-free in telling people the recipe is mine.

 

[GotGarlic]

I thought about this some more, including what I learned regarding copyright when I managed a large website, and I'm echoing Princess Fiona with a little more detail.

The legal matters aren't only for people who want to sell their recipes; they also protect places like this site. It's not uncommon for people to post others' recipes here word for word, which is illegal.

What's protected is people's original expression, whether it's a sculpture, a piece of music, or a recipe. A list of ingredients alone is not protected by copyright, but the way a person describes how to make the recipe is.

So the question should not be "how many ingredients do I have to change by how much?" but "is my description of the steps unique and original?"

Some people include instructional information in their recipes; some don't. Some have a certain "voice" when they write that others don't have. Some give more details about prep or options than others. All of these contribute to making a recipe your own. And copyrightable, whether you want to take that step or not.

 

[Andy M.]

...Lots of my most successful meals have started with reading recipes on the internet, reading the reviews of that recipe (if available), getting the “gist” of what is going on, and then just doing it my own way, by adding/deleting/substituting ingredients, using alternative cooking methods, etc.

There's nothing wrong with using an existing recipe as a starting point for your final creation.

I mean, how exact are most print recipes anyway? I bet most of them—the good ones, anyway—come from talented/experienced cooks attempting to put down on paper their best approximation of the seat-of-the-pants approach they would use when making a given dish, and as such, I see no point whatsoever in getting out the measuring spoon when a recipe calls for half a teaspoon of cumin or a tablespoon of soy sauce (for example)...

If it's a recipe from a reputable source, I would expect the recipe to have been tested with the listed measurements to ensure it comes out as expected. That's what I'd do. Every recipe I make public is a piece of my reputation and I would want to protect it.

I remember eating at a trendy Thai restaurant in San Francisco a few months ago, and there was a quote written on the wall, attributed to Marcel Boulestin. It has stuck with me since:

“Cookery is not chemistry. It is an art. It requires instinct and taste rather than exact measurements.”

I took a photo of it so I wouldn’t forget it. Words to live by, right there.

A lofty sentiment. However, if you create a great recipe it will be lost forever if you don't write it down with exact measurements for the rest of the world to enjoy.

I catalog all of my recipes in Microsoft OneNote, and it’s revolutionized my kitchen “workflow” in all of its facets, from searching to organizing to shopping. Every recipe has its own “journal” tucked behind it with comments and photos documenting every instance of the recipe. By making notes like “This time, I did such-and-such and it ended up perfect” or “I followed the recipe on salt and thought it was too much”, etc., I eventually zero in on a favored approach that may only loosely resemble the original print recipe. In those cases, I go guilt-free in telling people the recipe is mine.

When you want to make a recipe for the second, third or more time, do you follow the recipe?

Please see my comments inserted above.

 

[Dawgluver]

I belong to a jewelry-making and sculpting forum, the same issues come up. Folks steal and copy other peoples' ideas and teach workshops claiming the techniques as their own.

 

[GotGarlic]

I mean, how exact are most print recipes anyway? I bet most of them—the good ones, anyway—come from talented/experienced cooks attempting to put down on paper their best approximation of the seat-of-the-pants approach they would use when making a given dish, and as such, I see no point whatsoever in getting out the measuring spoon when a recipe calls for half a teaspoon of cumin or a tablespoon of soy sauce (for example).

You would be shocked then by the amount of effort that goes into writing a cookbook. People who get a publishing contract have to perform.

I helped test recipes for a cookbook several years ago and the process was very meticulous. The author spent weeks testing each recipe before sending them to testers, along with a questionnaire that helped her decide which to keep and whether and what type of changes to make.

Experienced cooks might be able to increase, decrease and substitute easily, but there are a lot of beginners and people who cook occasionally and she wanted to appeal to cooks with a variety of experience.

 

[mattdee1]

When you want to make a recipe for the second, third or more time, do you follow the recipe?

I do if my notes (or memory) tell me that following the recipe yielded tasty results. If I took liberties with the recipe, I read my notes to see what they were, and that's my new reference point. I choose to either do it the same again, or try other tweaks, and write down my thoughts on the results. Rinse/repeat.

Experienced cooks might be able to increase, decrease and substitute easily, but there are a lot of beginners and people who cook occasionally and she wanted to appeal to cooks with a variety of experience.

Understood, and I think that's where the value of the measurements comes in. People who don't cook much or don't have much of an interest in it have no gut feel whatsoever for how much cardamom may be too much, so they follow an exact set of dance steps to get a meal prepared. Makes perfect sense. If I'm working with new ingredients, or wacky combos of ingredients, then I'll pay closer attention to the recipe as-written. But there are lots of "common" things that I use a dozen or more times a month, and I feel measuring exactly is a waste of time. I've got several recipes that the family loves that I've never written down, except for a list of ingredients. The quantities are seat of the pants every time, yet the dishes always seem to taste the same, within our ability to detect.

[FONT=&quot]Besides, how many times do you see things like "one medium red onion" or "two sprigs of rosemary" in a list of ingredients? Not all "medium red onions" are the same size, and are going to vary the amount of onion... so why should I care if I use 0.135ml of garlic powder rather than the recommended 0.125ml? That's all I'm saying. [/FONT]

 

[GotGarlic]

Understood, and I think that's where the value of the measurements comes in. People who don't cook much or don't have much of an interest in it have no gut feel whatsoever for how much cardamom may be too much, so they follow an exact set of dance steps to get a meal prepared. Makes perfect sense. If I'm working with new ingredients, or wacky combos of ingredients, then I'll pay closer attention to the recipe as-written. But there are lots of "common" things that I use a dozen or more times a month, and I feel measuring exactly is a waste of time. I've got several recipes that the family loves that I've never written down, except for a list of ingredients. The quantities are seat of the pants every time, yet the dishes always seem to taste the same, within our ability to detect.

[FONT=&quot]Besides, how many times do you see things like "one medium red onion" or "two sprigs of rosemary" in a list of ingredients? Not all "medium red onions" are the same size, and are going to vary the amount of onion... so why should I care if I use 0.135ml of garlic powder rather than the recommended 0.125ml? That's all I'm saying. [/FONT]

Understood as well. This is what I was referring to, though. I don't think cookbook writers do it by the seat of their pants. Now, bloggers and sites like allrecipes, that's a different story

etc. I mean, how exact are most print recipes anyway? I bet most of them—the good ones, anyway—come from talented/experienced cooks attempting to put down on paper their best approximation of the seat-of-the-pants approach they would use when making a given dish, and as such, I see no point whatsoever in getting out the measuring spoon when a recipe calls for half a teaspoon of cumin or a tablespoon of soy sauce (for example). Yes, I know there are examples where exact measurements matter; I’m simply saying that oftentimes they do not, and adhering to them may actually do more harm than good.

 

[Andy M.]

I do if my notes (or memory) tell me that following the recipe yielded tasty results. If I took liberties with the recipe, I read my notes to see what they were, and that's my new reference point. I choose to either do it the same again, or try other tweaks, and write down my thoughts on the results. Rinse/repeat...

If that's the case, then you're following a recipe and using measurements. I see that as a legitimate way to cook and to ensure you can re-create a great dish.

At some point, do you rewrite your recipe incorporating the notes and changes?

 

[mattdee1]

If that's the case, then you're following a recipe and using measurements. I see that as a legitimate way to cook and to ensure you can re-create a great dish.

Nobody said that following exact measurements is illegitimate; I'm simply saying that it's not how I like to work, and I'm convinced it's overrated in lots of situations.

I figure, if I use a GPS every time I drive, I never learn how to get anywhere myself.

It's definitely not every time I cook, but whenever possible, I like to leave the measuring spoons in the drawer, trust my instincts, taste as I go, and keep notes. I really think that doing so over an extended period of time has made me much more proficient in the kitchen because I'm forced to learn something every time. Sure, there have been some mishaps, but every time that happens you take note of it and have a valuable lesson to carry forward for the next time a similar situation arises.

 

[GotGarlic]

Nobody said that following exact measurements is illegitimate; I'm simply saying that it's not how I like to work, and I'm convinced it's overrated in lots of situations.

This thread isn't about how you cook or what you think about following recipes. It's about how to determine when a recipe is uniquely yours.

 

[larry_stewart]

Just chiming in on the conversation of the most recent replies in this post, there have been many times that I watch a cooking show on TV, they explain the recipe, cook it right in front of you and tell you which ingredients and the measurements. Then I go to their website ( or buy their book) and the measurements are different than what they had shown or said on tv. I guess they have to commit to something when writing a book, but when actually cooking, they fly by the seat of their pants as to what looks / tastes right.

 

[GotGarlic]

Larry, I think you're right in terms of what they do when they're doing on the TV show, but when they're developing the recipes beforehand, they do a lot of testing, recording, having people taste-test, etc. Often, they're encouraging people to taste and season as they go along, too, so their viewers can learn how to cook to their own taste.

At that level, they also have assistants, and sometimes ghost writers, to help. No one in the audience is going to be eating what they actually make.

One of my personal pet peeves is new recipes that look and sound good, but that don't have any measurements at all. They say things like "depends on the quantity you're cooking for" or "add X, Y, and Z spices to your taste." Well, how do I know how much to add when I don't know what it's supposed to taste like? What is the predominant flavor supposed to be, or how do I prevent over-seasoning when there are no guidelines? I just skip recipes like this altogether and try to find something similar.

 

[Andy M.]

...One of my personal pet peeves is new recipes that look and sound good, but that don't have any measurements at all. They say things like "depends on the quantity you're cooking for" or "add X, Y, and Z spices to your taste." Well, how do I know how much to add when I don't know what it's supposed to taste like? What is the predominant flavor supposed to be, or how do I prevent over-seasoning when there are no guidelines? I just skip recipes like this altogether and try to find something similar.

I'd skip right past a recipe like that. It screams, "I cant be bothered to do it properly, so you figure it out."

 

[Bookbrat]

This is a hard one. I have a few recipes that are my own. They were off the top of my head, with no internet or cookbook searching, so when I made them a second time, I wrote down what I did. I also started writing down recipes for old family favorites when my DD went to college and wanted the recipes for, "You know, that chicken thing you make..." Those I claim and call my own.

I suppose there's a line there somewhere, but I don't know where it is. I almost always add more herbs/spices than called for, but can't in all good conscience call the modified recipe my own. I've noticed a certain popular magazine that's all reader-submitted recipes....often the recipes can be found on the internet almost verbatim, but with more/less salt, or a different kind of cheese. Doesn't seem right.

When I try a new recipe and it's worth making again, I'll save it with any changes made. But I always credit the source. I'm picky about that, after having my own recipes (which I am happy to share) posted to an email list with my name replaced by the list owner's. Rude. But that's another discussion.

It seems like most of my best food is thrown together using whatever's been in the fridge too long and could never be recreated. Like sand paintings, lol.

 

[larry_stewart]

One of my personal pet peeves is new recipes that look and sound good, but that don't have any measurements at all. They say things like "depends on the quantity you're cooking for" or "add X, Y, and Z spices to your taste." Well, how do I know how much to add when I don't know what it's supposed to taste like? What is the predominant flavor supposed to be, or how do I prevent over-seasoning when there are no guidelines? I just skip recipes like this altogether and try to find something similar.

I agree. If Im watching someone making a recipe that looks good to me, I want to know exactly what they put in, how much, and in some cases, even the brand names. When they start telling you to personalize it to your taste, or dont commit to specific measurements, sure, I get it, but if you are on a show where you are trying to teach someone how to do something, you need to be specific. After trying it once, then leave it up to us to make changes to adapt to our tastes. As far as brands go, there are somethings that dont make much of a difference, but Mayonnaise ( for example) can differ so much from brand to brand. So If i want it to taste like theirs, I need to know the specifics. I know that they sometimes cant blurt out specific brands due to sponsorships and all that other legal crap, but still annoys me