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Old 12-09-2004, 09:59 PM   #1
 
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Cholesterol and Margarine, vs butter...Audeo if you can ple

I have read the List's posts on margerine vs butter for some time, and am getting "mixed messages" as a result...

I we can agree, butter is just jammed full of chloresteral, and "is to be avoided"...

EVOO has the "LDL" chloresteral, as opposed the "butter" "HDL" (ie "bad") stuff, and so EVOO is not so neccessarily "bad" for you...

The "stick" margerines (ie the ones you buy as a solid "bar") are supposedly packed with trans-fats, (which the Canadian Government is about to just about "outlaw" or at the very least, post "food warnings" all over!)

I have been using "Becel" brand "tub" margerine for several years, as it is "allegedly" "free of trans-fats", "zero chloresteral" and "low in saturated fats"...

Recognizing that this might be the craftiest ad campaign going, and the "rules" are different south of the line, what do you Americans get "fed" as an "ad campaign" on the same issues?

Its an important issue, and one we should discuss...

Lifter

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Old 12-09-2004, 10:03 PM   #2
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OK at the risk of having someone shoot me...I use butter. I know that anything that remains solid at room temperature is bad for you. Hydrogenated, non, trans fats...whatever!! I use Olive oil and butter and no margarine. I figure if I die I will die happy.

Smart man Lifter to get this discussion going, I look forward to more informed minds than mine commenting on this.
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Old 12-09-2004, 10:12 PM   #3
 
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"smart man Lifter"???

Does this put me up for a "gender change"? Margaret will be furious! Aside from putting me on a "par" with her for being "smart"...

Alix, I think you should check out any "links" to eliminater possibilities of "retributions" on your comment!

I shudder to think what might happen to me while she checks that I'm still male...okay, I guess if I can't "forgive" that, I can at least offer my "thanks"...

Lifter

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Old 12-09-2004, 11:20 PM   #4
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Being a bit challenged by diabetes, I have had many talks with local nutritionists. It is true that animal fats, and trans-fats have negative health effects. It is also true that butter and lard are still healthier than trans-fats. And some fat is essential to proper nutrition. There are a host of nutrients and vitamins that are fat-soluble, that is, they are dissolved and carried in fats. They can be obtained in no other way. The highly toted Omega-3 fatty acids are esential for brain maintenance, and in infants and young children, for proper brain growth. Precious few sources exist for this important substance. They can be had in Canola oil (the jury is still out on that product. Some say it's a miracle product while others contend that it is one of the most dangerous foodstuffs on the planet), Safflower oil- contains polyunsaturates and some saturated fats but is a fairly good oil, Sunflower oil seems to be truly neutral with little bad, but little good, Nut oils - high in mono-unsaturates and the good HDL cholesterol, avacado oil, again as healthy as nut and olive oils.

Remember though that even oils such as olive, avocado, and nut oils are very high in caloric content and can help lead to obesity.

Oil is essential for body growth and maintenance. But it must be limited in quantity, and choices have to be made to use know good fats.

I choose to believe scriptural reference, use wisdom and good judgement in all things, and too much of anything is harmful, even the "good" things.

Eat too many carrots and you get carotene poisoning. That's just one example. There are literally hundreds of food items that when properly consumed are healthful. Another example is spinach (yes I even like the canned stuff). It is high in iron, but inhibits the bodies ability to absorb calcium. And very lean beef sheds the cholesterol, but has an iron compound that is especially hard on the pancreas and can help lead to diabetes and other such probelms by releasing free radicals into the body.

Nutrition is really quite simple. Eat a wide variety of foods, from every category, each in a reasonable quantity. That way, your body is getting a wide range of nutrients, and a low dose of whatever harmful elements is found in those foods.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North
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Old 12-09-2004, 11:36 PM   #5
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We don't get Becel here in the US ... and they don't give up the information required down here in the states so it's kind of hard to make more than a general comparison.

Technically speaking ..... butter is made from an animal source and has cholesterol (about 30mg per Tablespoon) while margarine is made from a vegetable source doesn't. But, cholesterol isn't the only issue ... you have the fats - poly-unsaturated, mono-unsaturated, saturated, trans-fats.

Olive oil has no cholesterol ... Extra Virgin, Virgin, Pure, or Light (actually there can be 7 -9 grades depending where it is from). The major thing about the grades of olive oil is (a) how it is processed (b) the acid content. The LDL and HDL thing has to do with how the fat is processed in the liver. Olive oil promotes LDL production ... and there are some enzimes that also appear to help.

Liquid vegetable oils usually have few, if any, saturted fats, and no trans-fats. Solid stick margarines are normally vege oil run through a "hydrogenation" process to make them solids ... it also causes the hydroxel ring to attach to unsaturated fats in a way that makes them saturated.

Soft spread "tub" vege margarines are usually emulsifications with a stabalizer such as geletan - but they can also be hyrogenated.

Now, nut oils are something else ... I know some are really bad ... but I really haven't looked into them personally.

My oldest son used to work for a company that makes a lot of specially blended oils/shortning blends for different companies (think big chain fast foods such as french fries and doughnuts) and high end restaurants and bakeries.

Ironically - when it comes down to calories .... fat is fat. It's about 100-110 calories per Tablespoon.

A few years ago ... after reading all the nutrition info on the labels ... I decided to stick with olive oil to grease the pan for cooking, and butter for baking, finishing off sauces and flavor.

This topic should generate a lot of discussion!
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Old 12-09-2004, 11:48 PM   #6
 
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As an answer to the very respected "Goodweed", who has posted a really fine reply...

(And I just had an incisor extracted today! Am "on" Tylenol 3+Codeine on an empty stomach, so please forgive me if I ramble or am outright "wrong!")

Great, a greatly respected writer/Contributer"Michael in Fort Worth" has just tossed in a pile on this topic...

Lets pay attention to what "MiFW" states, that "fat is fat"...

And my weak claim that Becel is non-hydrogenated, melts easily at room temp, has a reasonably "buttery" taste, no "trans-fats", is low in Chloresteral, and offers an olive oil "margerine" variant that "might" be a bit "healthier"...any product in Canada is in fact on offer in the USA...tho' you might have to "scout around for it" a bit...

Anyways, logging out!

Lifter
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Old 12-10-2004, 12:17 AM   #7
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Butter is a natural product while margarine, etc is manmade and heavily processed. Processed man made foods, as a general rule, tend to be worse for you and lower in quality than natural ones. I don't like the taste or texture of any butter substitute that I have tried and I just prefer butter. When eaten in moderation butter can be part of a healthy diet.

Just a few things on the sources of cbolesterol. The only source of cholesterol in food is from animal products. No plant will ever have any cholesterol. Cooking oil comes from plants and is always cholesterol free. The other source of cholesterol for people is what they make for themselves. Cholesterol is made in the liver by "wrapping" protien around fat molecules producing a waxy compound (lipoprotiens) which is either wrapped tightly (HDL) or wrapped more loosley (LDL). The amount of cholesterol that your body will produce and the ratio of HDL to LDL is controlled largely by genetics, but is also subject to the effects of several lifestyle factors.

It's generally accepted that having a low total cholesterol, and having a relatively high ratio of HDL to LDL is a good thing. People who want to attain these goals obviously can't change their genetic predispostion but they can change lifestyle. Eating less cholesterol in the diet, especially those foods high in HDL is one way. So is eating less Saturated fat, and especially trans-fats which are a major culprit (margarine, etc). Quitting smoking improves the ratio of good cholesterol(HDL) to bad cholesterol(LDL). Excercise lowers cholesterol and improves the ratio as well.

--------Michael
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Old 12-10-2004, 12:30 AM   #8
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Looks like we started typing about the same time Goodweed - and you got done before me!

Yes, fat is essential in a healthy diet. You've pretty much hit on the basic physiology. Some body parts need lubrication - some nutrients are "fat soluable" and without the fat - you don't get the nurtients.

Lifter - I had never heard of Becal so I went to their website ... and as far as being able to purchase their products in the US ... let me quote their FAQ webseite:

Q
Can I buy Becel in the United States?
A
The Becel products described in this web site are currently available only in Canada. Becel products are also sold in parts of Europe, Africa and Australia, but may differ from those made in Canada. If you are interested in being able to buy Becel products in the United States, please let us know.

No Lifter - I did not say that "fat is fat". There are differences between polyunsaturated, monounsaturated, saturated trans fats!!! What I said was, "Ironically - when it comes down to calories .... fat is fat. It's about 100-110 calories per Tablespoon." Trust me, I can put my foot in my mouth without any help ...
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Old 12-10-2004, 12:41 AM   #9
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Hey Michael (mjsorkin)! Welcome to the group!!!!!

I, personally, use olive oil almost exclusively for cooking .. and I use much less than the recipe usually calls for to grease the bottom of the pan. When it comes to flavor - BUTTER!!! Or, bacon fat ... I do have deep Southern roots .... but in moderation ....
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Old 12-10-2004, 12:57 AM   #10
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Thanks for the welcome Michael.

You are very right about fat being fat when it comes to calories. Fat is the most calorically dense nutrient and it contains nine calories per gram. Compare this to four calories per gram for both carbohydrates, and protien (alcohols have seven calories per gram but that is another story entirely).

As for fat soluable nutrients just a couple of things. Vitamins A,D,E, and K are the Fat soluable vitamins. Since the body has it's own stores of fat, it is possible to store lots of these vitamins along with it. You can, as Goodweed said, even overdose on these vitamins to toxic levels. On the reverse if someone had too little fat in his/her diet then it would be impossible to absorb the right amount of these nutrients. The water soluable vitamins (B-complex, and C) get excreted along with excess water (urine) and so they never really reach toxic levels in the body.
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