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Old 03-25-2015, 05:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ciaran View Post
...

No not really. Most bacteria are going to be pretty obvious anyway, making the meat smelly/mealy, but it's the botulism I'm worried about, that won't show any signs and even in tiny quantities is very toxic.
Botulism is caused by a microorganism.
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Old 03-25-2015, 05:29 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by medtran49 View Post
Aging and curing are totally different things. However, improperly aged catch is why many people are turned off of venison and other wild game.

Curing generally takes several days to a week or so for the initial process of adding spices/salt/herbs/sugar/etc., then 3-4 weeks of hanging for even a small piece of meat, and can take many months depending on what you are curing.

As far as curing, if you get the proper conditions set up beforehand, then it really doesn't require a lot of care, just checking, feeling, weighing to see how your product is progressing about once a week. When I did the bresaola and the duck breast prosciutto, I got everything set up and tested a few days before, checking several times a day to make sure that the temperature and humidity stayed in the correct range, which was temps 55 to 60, no higher, preferably right in the middle of that range. I don't remember the humidity percent off the top of my head, would have to check the books but you also have to have proper humidity. Too dry and you risk the outside of the meat drying out too fast, getting hard, and the inside basically ending up raw and rotted. Too moist and you get the bad kind of mold that WILL make you sick.

I read this thread early this a.m. and didn't answer until now, but my first thought was throw it out.
Thanks for the reply!

Is there any point in waiting and seeing how the meat goes or shall I just throw it away now?

Also, what is the meat possibly being at a slightly higher temperature for those few days likely to have caused? Are we talking about any specific bacteria and how about botulinum in particular? Is it true that whole cuts of meat don't have a risk of botulism?

In general, say you're curing a leg of pork or something, and a month in you go away for a few days and when you come back you realise that the place you stored it in was say, 65 F, do you then throw away the meat and start again?

Last question, my book said that up to 65 F is fine, is this wrong?

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Botulism is caused by a microorganism.
I know.
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Old 03-25-2015, 05:46 PM   #13
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Botulism is caused by a microorganism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran View Post
...
I know.
But if there is no Clostridium botulinum bacteria, there isn't any botulism.

Or are you worried that there could be Clostridium botulinum bacteria in some other part of the meat, elsewhere than where the sample is taken?
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Old 03-25-2015, 05:53 PM   #14
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But if there is no Clostridium botulinum bacteria, there isn't any botulism.

Or are you worried that there could be Clostridium botulinum bacteria in some other part of the meat, elsewhere than where the sample is taken?
Sorry yeah that's what I was thinking, given that it's so toxic even in such tiny amounts.
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Old 03-25-2015, 05:55 PM   #15
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I'd worry more about listeria than botulism, which is pretty rare, however, given all the salt that's used in cures I think you're at pretty low risk of contamination from anything. People have preserved meat this way for thousands of years, and not always under the most ideal conditions. But today we live in a very antiseptic age, where folks get weird whenever you even talk about doing stuff like this.

If it were mine, I sure wouldn't throw out a nice leg of lamb.

I'll also add that I would certainly try it myself before offering to anyone else. You know... just to mitigate the chances of getting hit with any lawsuits.
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Old 03-25-2015, 05:57 PM   #16
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I'd worry more about listeria than botulism, which is pretty rare, however, given all the salt that's used in cures I think you're at pretty low risk of contamination from anything. People have preserved meat this way for thousands of years, and not always under the most ideal conditions. But today we live in a very antiseptic age, where folks get weird whenever you even talk about doing stuff like this.

If it were mine, I sure wouldn't throw out a nice leg of lamb.

I'll also add that I would certainly try it myself before offering to anyone else. You know... just to mitigate the chances of getting hit with any lawsuits.
Lol either that or it's time to get a pet rat!
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Old 03-25-2015, 06:05 PM   #17
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Lol either that or it's time to get a pet rat!
Well, a pet something. Rodents can tolerate toxins that we can't.
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Old 03-25-2015, 06:38 PM   #18
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Just to also say that since taking the meat to the attic to hang I have been the taking temperature of the meat with an infrared sensor and it's max 17 min 10 currently.

Can anyone comment specifically on the botulism issue?

And is it worth just keeping the meat for a few weeks and seeing how it develops or will any issues of contamination be invisible so it's just as well to throw it away now?
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Old 03-25-2015, 06:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran View Post
Just to also say that since taking the meat to the attic to hang I have been the taking temperature of the meat with an infrared sensor and it's max 17 min 10 currently.

Can anyone comment specifically on the botulism issue?

And is it worth just keeping the meat for a few weeks and seeing how it develops or will any issues of contamination be invisible so it's just as well to throw it away now?
I think you've answered your own question. How much would you enjoy tasting it after you've written your will?
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Old 03-25-2015, 07:08 PM   #20
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I think you've answered your own question. How much would you enjoy tasting it after you've written your will?
I'd quite like some specific advice before I chuck out this 20 piece of meat, rather than just sound bites!

I will throw it away if needs be I just would like someone to explain specifically if and why the meat is now unsafe.

For example, my main concern is botulism and this book says there is no risk of botulism in whole cuts of meat, is this true? And if the meat was a few degrees over 18C for a few days before being returned to safe temperature ranges, specifically what will this have done to the meat?

For example, if botulism is truly not an issue then would not the other possible contaminants eg. e coli cause quite obviously mealy/off meat, particularly after a couple of weeks? How long does hanging meat need to be outside temperature range for there to be issues/risks, and what are they exactly?

I can't find these answers in the literature I have so I am asking here, but I need a bit more than "better safe than sorry" or "will it taste good when you're dead" etc.

Something more along the lines of "there is a chance that at x temperature, y micro-organism that is present in the meat even without it being sliced/minced will have been active and contaminated the inside of the food even in that time".



medtran49 mentioned drying too quickly, this might be an issue because the fan did a pretty good job of drying, maybe too good. The surface is already dry as a bone.
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