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Old 04-09-2016, 11:54 AM   #11
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Don't you have laws/regulations governing what may be called organic in US? If so, then this should safeguard against most fraudsters.
Yes, we do. Most people don't realize, though, that "organic" food can be sprayed with pesticides and herbicides as long as they're "naturally derived." Natural does not necessarily equal safe, and they're usually less effective. While synthetic pesticides have been extensively tested, "natural" ones have not, and they're sometimes more dangerous than the synthetics that for the most part replaced them.

And it's not more environmentally friendly because organic farming requires a lot more acreage due higher losses from crop damage.

So I think the entire "organic" industry is a big rip-off.
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Old 04-09-2016, 11:56 AM   #12
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Sure there are laws, but there are also creative marketing and packaging that can sometimes hint towards the truth. I don't have the patience to decipher all that. There are some brands, products or stores I do feel comfortable with, and I try to keep with them. It does require a little effort and homework though.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:03 PM   #13
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I do often buy fruits and vegetables from the farmers market because it's fresher than grocery store produce. They pick it the day before they bring it to the market. I know this because the farmer's wife posts it on Facebook

Artisan is different. Foods made by hand in the traditional way can be better than store-bought, but that isn't always true. It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I wouldn't pay $7 for a loaf of bread, but I have paid $5.

I once bought a grass-fed steak from the farmers market and cooked it side by side with a conventional one from the grocery store. We preferred the one from the store Go figure.

However, I'm not about to pay $17 for a free-range chicken when I can get a conventional one for $5-6.

Gluten-free is definitely a fad and has become a huge marketing term. Surveys have shown that many people don't know what gluten is. They also don't know what GMO means or how it works. They just have a vague impression that it's bad for you somehow.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:21 PM   #14
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I once bought a grass-fed steak from the farmers market and cooked it side by side with a conventional one from the grocery store. We preferred the one from the store Go figure.

However, I'm not about to pay $17 for a free-range chicken when I can get a conventional one for $5-6.
I wouldn't expect a purely grass fed beef to taste as good, because it's hard for a critter to put on any fat on a grass diet. When we used to buy our beef on the hoof out here, we bought from a farmer that my wife went to school with. They were essentially raised "organically", in that they were pastured for most of their first year, only given antibiotics if needed, and since he only raised 25 head per year, he could afford to give them direct attention. Then 2-3 weeks before going to the packer, they were put on feed in a small pasture to help fatten them up - the smaller enclosure kept them from walking off the added calories.

That's what the big feed lots do out here, take pasture fed cattle and feed them on a high calorie diet for a few weeks before slaughter. The difference is that they also usually add other stuff to the feed, in part because the cattle are crammed so close together that they have to prevent any possibility of infection, rather than medicating on an as needed basis.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:26 PM   #15
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Natural does not necessarily equal safe...
Remember, smallpox is natural, vaccine isn't.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:02 PM   #16
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Remember, smallpox is natural, vaccine isn't.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:21 PM   #17
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Yes, we do. Most people don't realize, though, that "organic" food can be sprayed with pesticides and herbicides as long as they're "naturally derived." Natural does not necessarily equal safe, and they're usually less effective. While synthetic pesticides have been extensively tested, "natural" ones have not, and they're sometimes more dangerous than the synthetics that for the most part replaced them.

And it's not more environmentally friendly because organic farming requires a lot more acreage due higher losses from crop damage.

So I think the entire "organic" industry is a big rip-off.
Yes there is a reason that naturally derived pesticides are less effective, i.e. they are less toxic! This makes a nonsense of your claim that they are 'sometimes more dangerous'. It's a question of minimising harmful pesticide spraying. Furthermore many inorganic pesticides have no long term studies.

Of course nature doesn't always equal safe but naturally produced food is preferable to that synthetically produced for many people.

Organic farming IS much more environmentally friendly e.g. for the wildlife. Yes it is less efficient - it's about quality of food rather than fast profit and I would rather bite into an organic apple anyday.

The organic industry may be different in US but stringent regulations are in place in UK and so here it is very far from being a 'big rip off'. Maybe you are speaking about US?
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Old 04-09-2016, 04:39 PM   #18
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I wouldn't expect a purely grass fed beef to taste as good, because it's hard for a critter to put on any fat on a grass diet. When we used to buy our beef on the hoof out here, we bought from a farmer that my wife went to school with. They were essentially raised "organically", in that they were pastured for most of their first year, only given antibiotics if needed, and since he only raised 25 head per year, he could afford to give them direct attention. Then 2-3 weeks before going to the packer, they were put on feed in a small pasture to help fatten them up - the smaller enclosure kept them from walking off the added calories.

That's what the big feed lots do out here, take pasture fed cattle and feed them on a high calorie diet for a few weeks before slaughter. The difference is that they also usually add other stuff to the feed, in part because the cattle are crammed so close together that they have to prevent any possibility of infection, rather than medicating on an as needed basis.
I don't remember all the details of this animal's life I just know I didn't feel that it was worth it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 05:07 PM   #19
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Ha. I finally learned what British call English Muffins > Muffins it is. I saw it on an old movie so I know it's true. Guy goes, I thought I asked for crumpets. Woman goes, They didn't have crumpets so you're getting muffins. As she slid his plate towards him and the camera did a close up as he dribbled jam on them. Tasty.

I feel bad. We have a long history of organic food co-ops with many locations throughout the city. They have priced themselves beyond my food budget. And now with most grocery stores carrying organic foods, and one in particular, that only stocks organic produce if it comes that way, and at regular prices, I don't need to shop co-ops. I like farmer's markets in summer. And what little I grow in my own garden.
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Old 04-10-2016, 04:57 AM   #20
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Don't you have laws/regulations governing what may be called organic in US? If so, then this should safeguard against most fraudsters.
From what I read ( I'm definitely not claiming to be any kind of expert on this), There are 'Certification Procedures) which a company, farm ..must abide by to be legally considered Organic ( which differ from country to country). And with these procedures comes 'Certification Costs' that the company / farms must pay to be allowed to advertise as being an Organizing Food Product. And with this Certification comes the involvement of government, and we all know how that works.

So are there laws and regulations? Absolutely. Does everyone follow these laws ? I would hope so, but I would be naive to think that people/ companies aren't greasing politicians to look the other way so they can pass whatever certifications they may need to get that " Organic' word on their label.

How often do we see on the news about recalls or fines to companies, who get caught with their pants down, after an independent study, by some 20/20 or 60 minutes type of journalists who run random tests and find out the product isn't what you think it is ?

Or lets take the politician in Michigan who ( Im not sure of the exact details, but was in the news recently) who said the water was safe, just to find out there were astronomical levels of lead in the water. We all know anything grown their, using such a high lead water base as irrigation, can't be all that healthy for you, yet up until a few months ago, no one knew.

So getting back to my original post on this thread. I try to stick with places I know , and hopefully I can trust, to get my produce and food products. And if I can grow it myself, I do ( at least for the months Mother Nature allows me to).

Sadly, the mighty dollar often over shadows peoples / companies values. If there is a way to maximize profits by cutting corners, greasing politicians, duping the public, just to get that ' table' on the product for advertising purposes, they will do it. Only one benefiting out of this are the Politicians who get greased, the companies who are benefiting from the increased mark-up by having those health ' tag words' on their packaging, and the lawyers who ultimately have to defend the companies after an independent study was performed ( sorry politicians and lawyers, nothing personal). And the only ones who get hurt, are the consumers who get charged in excess for this organic certifying process, and often don't get what they are paying for.

Marketing also has a field day with this as well. How often do you on the label, " Natural Fruit juice", then you read the fine print, and that only accounts for 5% of the juice. Or the terms Antioxidants, Organic, Whole Grain, Cleansing, 100% natural... Often products may technically fall in to the above category, but are loaded up with other things that may not be healthy for you, but still fit the qualifications to have a certain word on its label ( Notice how the unhealthy stuff isn't in big print). Gluten Free, is the latest health catch-word. Trust me, I'm in the medical profession, I know that there are many issues where a gluten free diet is mandatory for a persons health. But the marketing people are smart, and take these words and pound them into our brains to sell their products. 99% of the time, the consumer doesn't even know what these terms mean, they just know it is associated with good health, and therefore, worth the extra price.

The above is totally my option. May or may not be 100% factual, but Im kinda guessing Im not that far off base.

Sorry guys, this is what happens when I can't sleep, get up at 4am, and go on a rant.

Oh, and another thing, Im fully aware that you can't believe everything you find on the internet. For every article I find to back up my opinions, everyone else can find another that counteracts my thoughts. Guess the internet makes us all experts, and watching Dr. Oz makes us all physicians

One more disclaimer, as unfortunately people are starting to feel like they are being singled out or verbally attacked, My above response was written with no direct person or forum member or in fact, no country in mind. Its just my answer to the original post as to why, for the most part, I agree and feel that we are getting ripped off, and we should all be wise consumers as to what we buy , where we get it from, and how much we pay.
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