"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > General Cooking Information > General Cooking
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-03-2014, 04:06 PM   #31
Master Chef
 
cara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Posts: 5,763
It depends an the germs that grow. But most food-borne diseases are some kind of toxic, like ehec/vtec, Salmonella or Campylobacter.
It's the toxin that makes you sick, believe me ;o)
but sometimes that toxin, which is mostly protein-based, also denatures when heated.
__________________

__________________
LiGruess cara ~~~ Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
cara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 04:57 PM   #32
Sous Chef
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 511
>>but sometimes that toxin, which is mostly protein-based, also denatures when heated.

can anyone name an organic toxin that does not denature when heated?
__________________

__________________
dcSaute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 05:07 PM   #33
Chef Extraordinaire
 
taxlady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: near Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 18,882
Send a message via Skype™ to taxlady
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcSaute View Post
I'd be curious to know the source(s)of this information. as you know, the Forum management insists on the promulgation of only good information, and the above statement disagrees with pretty much everything from the food science world I've read in the last 20-30 years.
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/training.../foodborne.pdf
Page 3
"Staphylococcus aureus. While this bacteria produces a toxin that is heat stable, it is not a fatal toxin."

Food Poisoning (Foodborne Illness) causes, symptoms, microorganisms which affect foods; Information from UNL Extension
"Diseases which result from pathogenic microorganisms are of two types: infection and intoxication.

  • Foodborne infection is caused by the ingestion of food containing live bacteria which grow and establish themselves in the human intestinal tract.
  • Foodborne intoxication is caused by ingesting food containing toxins formed by bacteria which resulted from the bacterial growth in the food item. The live microorganism does not have to be consumed."
__________________
May you live as long as you wish and love as long as you live.
Robert A. Heinlein
taxlady is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 06:12 PM   #34
Sous Chef
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 511
a "heat stable" toxin survives 140'F

the staphylococcal enterotoxin is killed less than 212'F/100'C
__________________
dcSaute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 06:15 PM   #35
Chef Extraordinaire
 
GotGarlic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southeastern Virginia
Posts: 16,868
Thank you, TL.

dcSaute, I picked up that information when I was in culinary school taking the ServSafe class on food safety.
__________________
The trouble with eating Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again. ~ George Miller
GotGarlic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 06:26 PM   #36
Chef Extraordinaire
 
GotGarlic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southeastern Virginia
Posts: 16,868
From Bacterial food-borne illness at the Colorado State University Extension Service:

Quote:
Staphylococcal Intoxication

Staphylococcus bacteria are found on the skin and in the nose and throat of most people; people with colds and sinus infections are often carriers. Infected wounds, pimples, boils and acne are generally rich sources. Staphylococcus also are widespread in untreated water, raw milk and sewage.

When Staphylococcus bacteria get into warm food and multiply, they produce a toxin or poison that causes illness. The toxin is not detectable by taste or smell. While the bacteria itself can be killed by temperatures of 120 F, its toxin is heat resistant; therefore, it is important to keep the staph organism from growing.

Foods commonly involved in staphylococcal intoxication include protein foods such as ham, processed meats, tuna, chicken, sandwich fillings, cream fillings, potato and meat salads, custards, milk products and creamed potatoes. Foods that are handled frequently during preparation are prime targets for staphylococci contamination.
__________________
The trouble with eating Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again. ~ George Miller
GotGarlic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 07:14 PM   #37
Chef Extraordinaire
 
taxlady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: near Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 18,882
Send a message via Skype™ to taxlady
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcSaute View Post
a "heat stable" toxin survives 140'F

the staphylococcal enterotoxin is killed less than 212'F/100'C
Really? Page 6 of this document http://www.cdc.gov/biosafety/publica..._appendixI.pdf from the CDC,

Table 1.
Physical Inactivation of Selected Toxins

About Staphylococcal enterotoxin for 10 minutes of dry heat >100C:

"Inactivation may not be complete depending upon the extent of toxin re-folding after denaturation. Biological activity of SE can be retained despite heat and pressure treatment routinely used in canned food product processing."
__________________
May you live as long as you wish and love as long as you live.
Robert A. Heinlein
taxlady is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2014, 01:50 PM   #38
Sous Chef
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 511
interesting article(s) - it is "newer" research/reporting than most/all(?) of the conflicting info.

reading the foot notes and references, there's a lot of "may dos" and "might nots" - for example

foot note f:
Inactivation may not be complete depending upon the extent of toxin re-folding after denaturation.
Biological activity of SE can be retained despite heat and pressure treatment routinely used in canned
food product processing.14

now,,,, does the >100'C refer to killing the re-fold effect or the toxin proper....

refers to reference 14:
14. Bennett R, Berry M. Serological reactivity and in vivo toxicity of Staphylococcus aureus
enterotoxin A and D in select canned foods. J Food Sci. 1987;52:416-8.

note that this is from 1987 - one would think if the mights and mays are major threats something would be happening in "canned foods" methods.

with advancing science I wonder if it's perhaps the same effect as the "no carcinogens" food purity act. were that rigorously enforced at the parts per billion level, about half the stuff in the supermarket would be gone.
__________________
dcSaute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2014, 04:29 PM   #39
Master Chef
 
cara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Posts: 5,763
unfortunately I just have a german paper at hand..
as far as I know Shigella and Clostridium-Toxins are heat unstable.
And it says Salmonella and EHEC, too, but to be honest, I'm not that sure about it...

http://www.kerfex.de/Downloads/Steck...organismen.pdf
__________________
LiGruess cara ~~~ Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
cara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2014, 04:47 PM   #40
Executive Chef
 
Mad Cook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: North West England
Posts: 4,165
In short and to simplify - If in doubt throw it out!
__________________

__________________
Mad Cook is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
potato, potatoes

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.