"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > General Cooking Information > General Cooking
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-01-2007, 12:04 PM   #11
Head Chef
 
Caine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CHINATOWN
Posts: 2,314
Send a message via MSN to Caine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drama Queen
There's no doubt that making pie crust with lard is superior than any shortening, however, because this is pure animal fat the cholesterol and saturated fat content is very high.
On that note, let me put forth a recent observation.

I was grocery shooping and came upon a Mrs. Smiths deep dish apple pie, 9 inches in diameter, for $5.15. On the box there was a big yellow sun symbol that read "0g Transfats." Curious as to what they could be using for shortening for the crust, I turned the box over and started reading the ingredients. Sure enough, there was vegetable shortening and margarine, hydrogented vegetable oils included, on the ingredient list. HUH!?! How could they possibly have 0 grams of transfats when they admit there are hydrogented vegetable oils in the pie? Then I looked closer. "Servings per container: 12." Uh, sorry Smittty (may I call you Smitty?), but even a thorasic surgeon couldn't cut a 9 inch diameter pie into 12 pieces with destroying it. I have enough trouble cutting one of your pies into 8 pieces instead of six without the crust crumbling.

The moral of the story is, Marie Calender restaurants is having a sale on homemade pies this month, $5.99 each. I am sure they are healthier and taste better than Mrs. Smiths frozen bake-it-yourself pies, you don't need to light the oven, and they come in a wider variety of flavors.
__________________

__________________
Caine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 12:52 PM   #12
Senior Cook
 
VegasDramaQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 316
ROFLMAO!!! You've got a good point there. Cutting that little pie into 12 servings would be less than a 1 inch piece per person. No wonder the nutritional information isn't so bad. Funny thing is, and my husband was guilty of this, no one really pays much attention to the "servings per container" part of the info. If you realize just how small the servings are supposed to be you'd be amazed.
__________________

__________________
VegasDramaQueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 01:07 PM   #13
Head Chef
 
Caine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CHINATOWN
Posts: 2,314
Send a message via MSN to Caine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drama Queen
ROFLMAO!!! You've got a good point there. Cutting that little pie into 12 servings would be less than a 1 inch piece per person. No wonder the nutritional information isn't so bad. Funny thing is, and my husband was guilty of this, no one really pays much attention to the "servings per container" part of the info. If you realize just how small the servings are supposed to be you'd be amazed.
The thing is, as a nutritionist, I KNOW how big a serving is supposed to be, and 12 pieces from 9-inch pie ain't it!
__________________
Caine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 01:19 PM   #14
Head Chef
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 1,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael in FtW
I would really like to know who started the myth that you can't fry in olive oil! It has been documented that the Greeks and Romans were doing it nearly 2,000 years ago, according to Apicius compiled in the 4th-5th century CE.

Extra Virgin Olive Oil (406F) has a higher smoke point than Vegetable Shortening (356-370 F) - Extra Light Olive Oil (which is a refined oil) is even higher at 468 F- refined Peanut oil smokes at 450 F. Clarified butter (butter oil) - about 350 F. If you want the ultimate highest smoke-point oil - it's refined Avacado Oil (520 F) - with safflower a close second at 510 F.
I fry in olive oil - deep and shallow fry. Thanks for this post Michael. There's a thread on this somewhere. Chips and other things done in olive oil taste great, but it's always good to feel vindicated by an expert.
__________________
Snoop Puss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 01:54 PM   #15
Head Chef
 
Caine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CHINATOWN
Posts: 2,314
Send a message via MSN to Caine
I sauté in olive oil, I stir fry in peanut oil, and I deep fry in canola oil. Sometimes I flavor my stirfry with sesame oil by adding a splash near the end.
__________________
Caine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 02:28 PM   #16
Executive Chef
 
boufa06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Volos, Greece
Posts: 3,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanFrench
Aside from the saturated fat/cholestrol content and flavor, the other big variable is "smoke point" -- i.e. the point at which a fat will burn. Butter, for instance, has a very low smoke point, as does olive oil. You don't want to use either of those for heavy-duty frying. However, don't obsess about it too much. In many parts of the world, only one type of fat is readily available for cooking, and folks do just fine.
The old EVOO smoke point issue begins to smolder once again! Well, enough has been said as to what the smoke point of EVOO may or may not be. What I would like to ponder is how significant this smoke point may be in cooking. For the sake of argument, let's talk about the worst case scenario, ie. deep frying.

Provided that the food to be fried is added to the EVOO in the fryer before the latter reaches smoke point, I would venture to say that the EVOO will not reach its smoke point during frying as there is significant moisture in the frying food to keep the EVOO temperature in check. Needless to say, if the fryer has a thermostat that can be adjusted to keep the EVOO in the fryer at a temperature lower than its purported smoke point, the whole smoke point issue would be irrelevant.

The only possible EVOO (or for that matter any frying oil's) decomposition that may take place is when frying in a limited amount of oil, which will probably lead to charring of the food being fried on the outside. Over here, I have witnessed this phenomenon in the kitchens of several ladies of the 'old guard' (my dear mother-in-law included) who tend to splurge on EVOO when it comes to salads and cooked food but become inexplicably stingy when it comes to deep frying which it is almost always done in a shallow frying pan with a miniscule layer of oil in the bottom. This brings to mind the
Quote:
I'm sure the ancient Greeks didn't care if their oils smoked a bit, and they certainly didn't care about the possible carcinogenic effects of same.
which may have been the cause of the demise of ancient Greece not to mention the Roman Empire as well. However, when frying in a deep fryer no such problems should occur. Too bad that ancient Greeks and Romans alike could not benefit from their use!

To summarize, 'smoke point' may be a smokescreen of sorts, if such a temperature cannot be achieved under normal cooking conditions. There remain only a few cases reflecting bad cooking/health habits where the cooking oil/fat is deliberately brought to its smoking point. One such case that comes to mind is the questionable practice of cooks of the old guard here who toss spaghetti or even boiled rice in a pan of smoking oil or clarified butter prior to adding sauce etc. just before serving. However, even in this case, whether one uses EVOO or not is once again irrelevant since whatever the cooking oil may be, it is brought to its smoking point anyway. Incidentally, the same will happen if during cooking for whatever reason the temperature rises abnormally in the cooking pot (eg. when all moisture is gone). That is to say, in such a case, no matter what the smoke point of the cooking oil may be, it will be reached anyway and the unhealthy effects of decomposing oil and/or burning food will be inevitable.
__________________
The proof of the pudding is in the eating!
boufa06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 03:01 PM   #17
Certified Pretend Chef
 
Andy M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 41,395
boufa:

Your logic is sound and you are correct about being able to deep fry in ev olive oil with no issue. This is true for the first use of evoo (or any other oil). Each use of oil for deep frying contaminates that oil. This contamination, along with the heat lowers its smoke point. After several uses, normal frying temps which were safely below the oil's smoke point will now cause that same oil to smoke.

Use isn't the problem, reuse is.
__________________
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan
Andy M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 05:53 PM   #18
Senior Cook
 
eatsOats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: OR/CA Border
Posts: 106
wow, excellent discussion! I have learned much already. This is of great interest to me because I love trying out different kinds of oils. I agree with Andy about the use of EVOO in a deep frier. That being said, I use EVOO or extra light olive oil for 99% of my frying with great results. Here is a table that I saw the other day describing the breakdown of different kinds of fats contained in common oils. I thought it was interesting:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fats diagram2.jpg
Views:	203
Size:	100.4 KB
ID:	2539  
__________________
eatsOats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 11:54 AM   #19
Executive Chef
 
boufa06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Volos, Greece
Posts: 3,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
boufa:

Your logic is sound and you are correct about being able to deep fry in ev olive oil with no issue. This is true for the first use of evoo (or any other oil). Each use of oil for deep frying contaminates that oil. This contamination, along with the heat lowers its smoke point. After several uses, normal frying temps which were safely below the oil's smoke point will now cause that same oil to smoke.

Use isn't the problem, reuse is.
Andy, good that you understand the issues here too.

As for the reuse, it surely should be curtailed as much as possible. However, when we had our restaurant, I was not able to detect smoking when deep frying (calamari most of the time) in reused oil. What I did witness was that the oil eventually would lose its ability to fry the calamari anymore, with the latter shedding water and sort of boiling happily in the deep fryer. Needless to say, this was a clear sign that the oil should already have been replaced. Eventually, we did reach a rule of thumb to cover such cases which was to replace the oil after frying for the third time in it. The only time that smoking would occur was when we were too late in putting the calamari into the deep fryer where the oil was being heated.
__________________
The proof of the pudding is in the eating!
boufa06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2007, 09:48 PM   #20
Master Chef
 
Michael in FtW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,592
Generally, when we talk about fats (solids or oils) used in cooking we are talking about "triglycerides" - three fatty acid chains of various lengths attached to a 3-molecule glycerin backbone.

When fats are heated up to frying temps, and used for frying, they break down from both heat and contamination from the foods cooked in them - the fatty acid chains break apart and become "free fatty acids" - fatty acid chains not attached to a glycerin chain. These free fatty acids are highly reactive to oxidation, and lower both the "smoke point" and "flash point" of the oil. And, they are not as healthy - they are more like to be absorbed. The more times fat is heated up to the frying temp, or the longer it stays there - the less healthy it becomes. But, it's life can be prolonged by filtering every day. But, different oils have their different limits on how many times they can be re-used.

Just something to think about when selecting your "fry" oil - in addition to flavor.
__________________

__________________
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Michael in FtW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.