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Old 04-16-2004, 09:28 AM   #1
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Bagels fall-- Help

We have experimented with our bagel recipe and got the taste just like the ones from the bagel shop on Rue St. Vituer in Montreal, but after we boil them and put them in the oven to bake, they fall. They taste great, but look like sesame topped pancakes with a hole in the middle.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Smokey

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Old 04-16-2004, 11:34 AM   #2
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i'D REALLY LIKE TO HAVE A RECIPE FOR A REALLY GOOD BAGEL! wOULD YOU CONSIDER POSTING YOURS?

wILD GUESS: tHE BOILING PROCESS - AONG OTHER THINGS - SHOULD FORM A SKIN THAT PREVENTS GAS LEAKAGE. pERHAPS YOU'RE NOT BOILING THEM QUITE LONG ENOUGH?

Oops = didn't notice I had caps lock on - sory!
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Old 04-16-2004, 01:40 PM   #3
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Falling could relate to gluten development. Are you using high protein bread flour? Are you kneading them sufficiently? Are you possibly weakening them by overkneading them?

That's my best guess.
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Old 04-17-2004, 04:48 PM   #4
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I have only ever tried to make bagels once, and got the same result, crispy bottoms, but totally flat. I'm usually ok at bread making. I am sure it's the boiling I am doing wrong. I'll let you try the suggestions first and if it works for you I'll try again
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:08 PM   #5
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Thanks for the ideas.
We travel to Montreal several times a year to visit my inlaws and we always pick up smoked meat at Schwartzes on St Laurent and bagels on St. Viateur. Both places have been making their wares there, the same way, since the 40's. If you're in Montreal, try it. St. Laurent st. has every kind of ethnic food you can imagine. I've never had NY bagels, but they say these are the same. We liked them so well and can't get anything resembling a real bagel, where we live, in central NY, we tried to make them.
We started with a real Jewish recipe, off the net, but it didn't taste the same. We adjusted the recipe and everyone who tries them agree the taste is identical. If anyone tries this recipe and figures out how to keep them from falling, Please let me know.
We use a bread machine to mix the dough.
Here goes;
Put in machine;
1 1/2 cups warm water
4 tblsp sugar (we haven't tried it but it said honey could be used)
1/2 tsp salt
4 cups high gluten flour or add 4 tsp gluten to flour
2 tblsp dry yeast
Start machine on dough setting, about 15-20 min.
Place in lightly oiled bowl and swish around, to cover ball with oil, to keep it from drying out and cover bowl with damp cloth
Let rise to double size. Usualy 15 -20 min.

|While rising, put about 1 1/2 inches of water in large pan, (we use a roasting pan) bring to a boil and add 4 tblsp malt syrup or malt sugar.
pre heat oven to 400. If going to make second batch, start mixing it now.

After dough has risen, punch it and immediately divide into about 12-14 balls. Push hole through ball and form bagle and put on lightly oiled cutting board. At this point the original recipe said to let them rise 10 min then boil 3 min per side. Someone else said that's why they fell and to boil them immediately, 45 sec per side. ( We've tried both ways and they still fall.) After boiling, drop on towel to dry and add sesame or poppy seed to one or both sides, to your taste.

Sprinkle cookie sheet with corn meal to prevent sticking and put on bagels.
Bake 12 min and turn over
Bake 10 min and check for nice golden brown color
if necessary, bake a few min. more
Now get out the butter and enjoy!

If anyone makes them without falling PLEASE let me know how.
Smokey
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Old 04-17-2004, 10:49 PM   #6
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Sugar weakens gluten structure - try half. I've always been led to believe that sweetness stems from the malt in the boiling water, not excessive sweetener in the dough.

Pushing holes through the dough is not a good idea - tears the gluten. Roll it into columns and press together the ends.

Your bread machine may be underkneading/overkneading the dough. The only way to know if the dough is properly kneaded is to do it by hand. When you take the dough out of the machine is it smooth or bumpy? When you press it with your finger does the impression bounce back?

Is the dough overly sticky when it comes out of the machine? If it is you might want to use a little less water.

What temperature is your "warm" water? What temperature do you let the dough rise at? The time frame your recipe uses seems a little short. 30-40 minutes from the combining of ingredients until the bagels hit the boiling water seems like a fraction of the time a bagel should take. Time and/or kneading are both important components for gluten formation.

1.5" of water may not be enough water. Too little water and the temperature will drop when the bagels hit it and they won't set correctly. How many bagels are you boiling at once?
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Old 04-18-2004, 07:11 AM   #7
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Thanks Scott,
We've tried rolling into columns and pressing together with the same results.
I think the next time we'll try less kneading, and more time and see what happens.
Smokey
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Old 04-20-2004, 06:01 PM   #8
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If they keep falling... pick them up! And stop dropping them!! :D
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