"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > Recipes & Ingredients > Breads, Pizza & Sandwiches
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-02-2005, 08:59 PM   #61
Senior Cook
 
oldcoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA,California
Posts: 487
Thanks for all the kind - if undeserved - words, Pete. You must remember, I, like you, am a beginner at the bread baking thing, so my thoughts here are simply what I have experienced, and should not be taken to much to heart.

Also, Pete, don't be hesitant with the Biga-sponge-starter thing. They can add a nice flavor, and need not otherwise affect your "recipe" I simply make a batter of the water/yeast and a little flour and let it stand. Overnight gives the flavor I prefer (about 12 hours)

Keep havin' fun. (That's really the whole point for us amatuers, isn't it?)
__________________

__________________
oldcoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2005, 04:12 PM   #62
Sous Chef
 
subfuscpersona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 562
hi oldcoot!

I'm a great fan of yours. I've read all your posts to DC. I've learned a lot from you You're an experienced baker and not afraid to experiment.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread. The pictures you included were great.

I would like to comment on some of the parts of your post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcoot on 07-31-2005
First, the "Biga" thing. Using the posted "Bakers' Percentages" (100% flour, 74% water, and 0.2% AD yeast) I made my biga - or rather bighino, I guess - using 5.4 oz AP flour, 4 oz (1 cup) warm water, and 0.1 oz AD yeast
Covered the bowl tightly with plastic wrap and set aside at room temp (75F day, 60 F night) for 23 1/2 hours. Had a pleasant, slightly sour aroma. Half an inch of water on top.
Maybe you were aiming for a slight "sour dough" flavor, but, IMHO, your rising time was too long, given that the biga was rising at 75F for about 12 hrs and at 60F for about 12 hrs. One indication of this is that it had water on top. You shoudn't get that kind of seperation in the biga (see my pix of this biga on pg 1 of the thread).

If you want a 24 hr rise, keep the temp closer to 60F for the entire time. Even at this temp, about 12 hrs should be sufficient. The key is that the biga approximately triples in bulk. When this has happened, it is time to either use it or refrigerate it to stop the yeast growth.

Commercial yeast cannot, at a certain point, continue to multiply when the preferment gets too acidic yet the acidity is a natural by-product of yeast growth. Acidity is what you can sense in the sour aroma. If the dough gets too acid, the yeast starts to die. (This is in contrast to true "sourdough starters" which are cultivated by capturing wild yeasts naturally present in the air. These wild yeasts can tolerate higher acidity and will continue to multiply.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcoot on 07-31-2005
Formed dough and placed it in pyrex loaf pan. It took 2 hours to double!
This is about right. However, my experiments lead me to the conclusion that, for this kind of bread, it is sufficient to have the dough rise in the pan to about 1-1/2 its original size. I find that gives me better oven spring (eg - further rise when baking)

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcoot on 07-31-2005
Into a preheated 400 F oven for 35 minutes. I expected addtonal rising in the oven - didn't happen! Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Howcum???? Anybody????
I posted recipes, pictures and comments re my experiments using this biga for a loaf-style bread. They're on page 3 of this thread - see my attempts at white bread with a pre-ferment, My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part I and My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II (Unfortunately, due to the switch to a different forum software, my posts now require scrolling horozontally to be able to read all the text. Am clueless whether this can ever be corrected.)

Not sure what to say here. I've continued to make this bread and I typically get an additional one-inch rise when baking it. I find that the oven spring happens (if its going to happen at all) during the first 15-20 minutes of baking.

While you're using (like me) pyrex bread pans,. I do note you're baking at an initial 400F, rather than the 450F temp recommended in my recipe.

Did you continue to bake the bread at the lower temp that was recommended after the first 20-30 minutes? Did you also do the "drying out" stage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcoot on 07-31-2005
Here's the result: Flavor not great. Slightly sour, but not that nice "sourdough" kind of sour. Texture fair, a tad heavy for my liking. Nice thin crust,'tho. Loaf weighed 1.2 lbs. ...
Conclusion: Bigas, sponges, etc. are fine, and add flavor and may improve texture some, but I have had equally good or better results without them. So I am still undecided.
I would be the first to admit that making bread using preferments is a lot more work than just
making an ordinary loaf dough.

I know you've posted a lot of tips and recipes for producing great tasting bread without this extended approach. You also like to experiment with producing a "sourdough" bread with commercial yeast. However, breads made with preferments are not intended to produce that "sourdough" flavor. They have, if well made, their own, unique flavor but it is not "sourdough". That doesn't mean you can't experiment (how else can one learn?); it just means that these kinds of breads are not designed for the sourdough approach.

These doughs tend to be a lot "wetter" than I'm used to. Due to the high water content, they are fragile during the
rise and require extremely gentle handling. I am still experimenting myself. I am a struggling student of this approach, not an expert by any means.

However, My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II does not disappoint me. The texture (what it looks like when sliced) has small holes throughout. It is not heavy at all. The crust is thin and crackly (especially on the top, where it is exposed to evaporation during baking). The flavor is great. Keeping qualities are poor (it only stays fresh for 1-2 days) but that doesn't matter since it is usually consumed within 24 hrs.

In one of my posts in this thread, I mentioned that friends and neighbors also get the fruits of my labors. It is really helpful to me to get feedback from others about my bread-making experiments.

I will say that My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II has gotten high praise from everyone I've given it to. I have several neighbors in my apartment building who have asked to get a loaf of this bread whenever I make it.

I am still struggling with free-form bread using preferments, as all can see by looking at my post my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part I on page 5 of this thread. The breads I've baked with this technique have, so far, never equalled the taste and texture of My White Loaf Bread with Biga.

Do please continue to experiment with preferments and post your thoughts, musings, results etc. to this thread.

This is a collaborative thread that solicits responses from all Readers

SF [2620]
__________________

__________________
subfuscpersona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 10:16 PM   #63
Head Chef
 
Audeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA,Texas
Posts: 1,871
Absolutely outstanding thread, subfusc! What an incredible pleasure to find and re-read after such a time.
__________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is Optional.
Audeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 02:50 AM   #64
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 19
Well, my attempts aren't really following the rules of this thread in that I'm not using the stated preferment, but I don't see a lot of activty here, so I'll just jump in. If there's a more appropriate place to go, please feel free to point me in that direction.

I'm at the beginning of my yeast bread "career," and thoughlessly decided to go with the baguette as the first bread that I'd like to work on. I've thumbed through the King Arthur cookbook as well as the Baker's Apprentice in the bookstore. At home, though, I'm leaning on my copy of "The Best Recipe," "Cookwise," and my subscription to Cooks Illustrated's web archive.

I started out with CI's baguette recipe/method, but decided early on that I'd go with Shirley Corriher's (Cookwise) additions of Semolina and bean flour. For flavor. I admit that my first attempt without the benefit of CI's 12-16 hour refridgerator final proofing affected that decision.

Sponge:
6 oz warm water
5 oz King Arthur unbleached a.p.
1 oz Semolina
1 tsp soy flour
1/4 tsp a.d. yeast
250 mg vitamin C tablet crushed to powder
(I split a 500 mg tablet in a pill splitter, then crushed it in a pill crusher)


Dough:
10 oz unbleached a.p. flour
4 oz water
3/4 tsp a.d. yeast
1 tsp salt (right before first dough rise)

The CI method involves an approximatly 6 hr pre-ferment, which is then mixed with the dough ingredients (yeast and water until incorporated, then flour). The description states that the dough should be fairly dry, but mine is, in three tries, too wet to handle. This third time I've finally added around 1/2 cup of bread flour to dry out the dough enough to actually handle and shape according to the directions.

Any ideas on why such a specifically weighed recipe like this wouldn't work when I'm using the exact brand of flour specified?
__________________
johnjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 04:21 AM   #65
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 19
So I posted this reply, but it didn't move on the "last post" sort, nor did I show up as the last poster, despite numerous refreshes. In addition, I showed up as the author, but with zero posts. So, a bump.
__________________
johnjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 02:14 PM   #66
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 19
So, the action shots of my loaves coming out of overnight retarded proofing, then baking and interior. For now, the pictures are attachments.

Pluses: Beautifully crunchy crust, soft pocketed interior

Minuses: Needs more salt for flavor. It's *ahem* possible that I forgot to add it to the final dough.

The texture is exactly where I want it to be. I'm not seeing a whole lot of flavor benefit from the 18 hour proof in the fridge. No blisters which is what I was told to expect.

Comments?

Hello? Is this thing on? :)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0214.JPG
Views:	167
Size:	44.2 KB
ID:	378   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0215.JPG
Views:	152
Size:	39.5 KB
ID:	379  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0216.JPG
Views:	163
Size:	42.0 KB
ID:	380   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0217.JPG
Views:	167
Size:	42.0 KB
ID:	381  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0220.JPG
Views:	162
Size:	42.0 KB
ID:	382   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0222.JPG
Views:	146
Size:	46.8 KB
ID:	383  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0223.JPG
Views:	162
Size:	51.6 KB
ID:	384   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0232.JPG
Views:	155
Size:	38.5 KB
ID:	385  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0234.JPG
Views:	155
Size:	23.9 KB
ID:	386   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0235.JPG
Views:	166
Size:	20.8 KB
ID:	387  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0236.JPG
Views:	161
Size:	21.3 KB
ID:	388  
__________________
johnjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 06:16 PM   #67
Cook
 
amcardon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Good ol' Idaho
Posts: 90
I made my biga yesterday, let it sit, went to work with it today and it was exactly like you described. Started working in the dough and was very surprised at the strong vodka-like aroma. I've never made bread from any kind of starter before (i.e. biga, levlian, poolish, sponge, etc...) and really didn't know what to expect. My dough is proofing right now so we'll see how the final result is!

Side note - my bread always turns out awful anyway so I honestly don't expect great results... I'm no baker, that's for sure! I love working with caramel and chocolate, bread has just never been my forte no matter how hard I try. I've even made bread at the side of a great Dutch baker and the bread we made didn't turn out! She said that was the worst her bread has ever turned out! I'm cursed!
__________________
amcardon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 09:22 PM   #68
Cook
 
amcardon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Good ol' Idaho
Posts: 90
Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made! Not only does it look good (which usually isn't so) but it tastes GREAT! There is SO much more flavor in this bread than any I have made or any that my wife has made (and she makes pretty darn good bread...)! I have Beranbaum's Bread Bible and I've been too intimidated to try anything, maybe this will give me a little boost of confidence! I wish I had a digital camera to show my results! I never thought I could get this excited about bread!
__________________
amcardon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2005, 06:05 PM   #69
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by amcardon
Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made!
[..]
I never thought I could get this excited about bread!
I've started a biga too for my attempt at a whole wheat ciabatta. I'll post pictures as I work it.
__________________
johnjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2005, 02:57 PM   #70
Sous Chef
 
subfuscpersona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 562
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjohn on 09-01-2005, 02:50 AM
... my attempts aren't really following the rules of this thread in that I'm not using the stated preferment, but I don't see a lot of activty here, so I'll just jump in.
There are no real "rules" - just use a preferment for your bread (which you did) which keeps the thread on-topic.

I loved your post and the follow-up pictures. Both the preferment recipe and the final dough recipe were really clear. Thanks for taking the time to post them.

QUESTION(S):
> what was the oven temp and baking time for your baguettes?
> did you transfer the risen loaves to a baking stone or just put the pan in the oven? (looks like the latter to me)
> did you use any home steaming techniques?

TIA
__________________

__________________
subfuscpersona is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
None

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bread baking techniques jasonr Breads, Pizza & Sandwiches 10 05-25-2006 04:16 AM
Making bread with wine yeast Jenni Breads, Pizza & Sandwiches 21 09-03-2005 11:46 AM
Pita Bread masteraznchefjr Unleavened Breads 3 01-31-2005 06:35 AM
Breadman bread machine recipe buckytom Breads, Pizza & Sandwiches 1 11-14-2004 07:38 AM
Oils ain't oils Brooksy Breads, Pizza & Sandwiches 11 09-11-2004 02:35 AM


» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.