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Old 10-25-2006, 12:30 PM   #11
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I waited til the dough had doubled in size & was well above the top of the tins but once in the oven they seem to have fallen down so that the cooked bread is only the height the tin

Am I doing something wrong or is this something I should expect?
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:12 PM   #12
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Flic, I've been battling one particular type of bread for the last year (fine, I only bake in the winter, so we're not really talking 12 months here!) and I'd propose that your "why didn't it rise enough?" is a million-dollar question! Breads can be tricky. All of the factors that have been mentioned thus far are important, but getting it right can be a true skill and an art. If your dough had risen very high then fallen in the oven, it may have been permitted to rise TOO much, which will actually weaken the structure ... Complicated! I recommend the Paula Figoni book "How Baking Works" to get a truly thorough understanding of all the elements and how they interact. Good luck in the meantime!
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flic
I waited til the dough had doubled in size & was well above the top of the tins but once in the oven they seem to have fallen down so that the cooked bread is only the height the tin

Am I doing something wrong or is this something I should expect?
The dough should not collapse in the oven.
When my bread does that it is usually because the dough was over-proofed (allowed to rise too long on the second rise). I don't think you can necessarily depend on "doubling" for the second rise. They say you can tell by pressing two fingers about 1/2" into the dough and if the indentation quickly disappears it needs to rise longer. I haven't seen this in the literature but I assume that if the dent doesn't recover at all it may have risen too much.
If the dough hasn't fully doubled in the secondary fermentation or rise you should expect to get a little more rise in the first minutes of baking. This is called oven spring or oven kick. If the dough has risen too much beforehand it will tend to collapse on itself either in the oven or when you try to score it.
I don't think I'm contradicting the advice given earlier. On the first rise the dough should fully double and allowing it to go a little longer doesn't hurt anything.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flic
I'm using fast acting dried yeast with an expiry of march 2007
You'll do just fine! And Jan's right...don't throw the smaller loaves out!! You can also chop them up and use them in stuffing!

I once used too hot of water with my yeast, and killed it! Now that bread was disgusting!
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Old 10-26-2006, 12:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flic
I waited til the dough had doubled in size & was well above the top of the tins but once in the oven they seem to have fallen down so that the cooked bread is only the height the tin

Am I doing something wrong or is this something I should expect?
No, you shouldn't expect this. Possible causes...

> you used all-purpose flour instead of bread flour - as a general rule of thumb, if you're making white sandwich bread, bread flour is more suitable than all-purpose flour

> the dough could have been insufficiently kneaded before the first rising

> the dough has too much flour in proportion to water (it feels "dry" or "heavy")

> as others said, you let the dough rise too long in the pan

==============

without knowing the recipe it is hard to diagnose further. Bread doughs with mostly bread flour should rise some more when baked in a *preheated* 350F oven.

================
re your yeast...

I notice you said "I'm using fast acting dried yeast with an expiry of march 2007" - is this yeast *active dry* yeast or *instant dry* yeast? Ppl are assuming you're using active dry yeast, which must be dissolved in water prior to use. Instant yeast, in contrast, should be added to the dry ingredients (it won't work as well if dissolved in water since it is not processed to be used that way). In addition, there are certain brands of "fast acting" yeast that are designed to produce a quick rise but wimp out if the rise is extended over a longer period. What was the actual brand and type of yeast you used?
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Old 10-26-2006, 03:48 AM   #16
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Flic, breadmaking is sometimes a hit and miss thing and a bit of luck too! I use dry yeast in all my bread making. In most cases, they came out alright unless it's a lousy bread recipe. Those days when I had to bake breads for my own restaurant I was having problems with the texture of the breads that I was making so I had a good talk with the flour mill representative who proceeded to explain the different types and brand of flour in household and commercial packing for both breads, noodles and cakes. All in all there were 18 types of flour for commercial establishments in 25kg bags!! At the end of the discussion I was more confused than ever. I was given some samples to try which turned out unsatisfactory. In the end I decided to just stick to all purpose (plain) flour which worked out very well for me as I prefer my bread to have soft and spongy texture.

So coming back to your bread rising problem, perhaps you might want to try plain flour using dry yeast. Mix your yeast with some sugar and finger hot (warm) water and let the mixture become frothy. Then add to your flour mixture. Let it rise in a warm place till double the size. Punch it down and let it rise a second time. Bake in a preheated oven at 200 degrees C for about an hour.
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Old 10-26-2006, 07:26 AM   #17
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Also, dont forget that after the first rise, you should "punch" the dough down a bit and let it rise again for a little while before putting it into a well-preheated oven. "punching" the dough down after the rise distributes the gas and gives the yeast more starch to feed on, which is necessary for keeping yeast alive long enough to release more gas which causes the rise.
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:48 PM   #18
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It could be caused by several things:

1) Yeast: dead, not properly proofed, not the type called for in the recipe, or insufficient amount.

2) Dough: not properly kneaded, not properly proofed (proofing until it collapses is not proper proofing - it's over proofing which will result in a flat loaf), insufficient moisture.

3) Pan Size: using the wrong size pan for the amound of dough.

4) Temp: wrong oven temperature (too low)

What was your recipe and what did you do that deviated from it?

Of course - that is assuming that you are using a yeast levened dough. A "quick bread" that is levened by chemicals (baking powder/baking soda) is going to be different (like Irish Soda Bread).
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flic
I waited til the dough had doubled in size & was well above the top of the tins but once in the oven they seem to have fallen down so that the cooked bread is only the height the tin
Am I doing something wrong or is this something I should expect?
As Skilletlicker said, this is too much of a rise. If you let it rise too much for the amount of yeast/dough structure to hold during the baking process, it will collapse. And depending on the dough type and the amount of sugar and yeast activity, breads have what is called "oven spring". The dough has risen perhaps to the level of the top of the pan. Then when it hits the oven, it rises a bit more.
Make the dough, let it rise until doubled. Being able to poke two fingers into the dough and it hold that print is a good sign. Punch it down and fold it over a few times to get the air out. Shape your loaves (unless it calls for a second bowl rising) and put them in greased pans. They should not be over half of the size of the pans you are using. Cover with a towel and put in a draft free place. Let rise to approximately double and bake.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:51 PM   #20
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[quote=Half Baked]Flic, don't toss the loaves. You can have smaller sandwiches with a denser bread. I reminds me of the sandwiches we ate in Germany.

Cut the entire loaf in half and then turn one half on its end and slice thin. Works well for dense breads. Just like those westphalian breads you can buy ]
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