I'm so ashamed!

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

Originally Posted by Moon Flower

With respect but your statement would be labelling coalminers "peasants" for eating pasties that their wives made for them to take down the mines for lunch.

Pasties had a big thick "handle" of pastry around the outside of them. This was so their men could hold the pasty in their coal blackened hands.

Pasties are traditionally made with highly seasoned meat, often lamb which was cheap in those days, the pasties' content being layers of sliced potato, then root veg and pieces of meat, sometimes beef if it was on Mondays after their families had a roast the day before. Pasties are sadly not made anywhere near like the original, but the county of Cornwall in western England is where the humble pasty originated.

It is perfectly okay to put chopped carrot into the pastie mixture. Maybe the OP's diners will be able to see in the dark better, just like the coalminers before them.

Pizza should really be classed as "Peasant food". Its origin began in the poorer parts of Italy, cooked in a wood fire that was covered in earth. Mum wrily comments that mozarella was only used by the Italian poor because buffalo freely roamed, were easily acessable, so its cheese curd was easily obtained.

Jill

There is some controversy in England whether pasties originated in Cornwall, or Devon, as both areas lay claim to the pastry. As I understand it, in Corwall, the seam is pinched together on top of the pastry, and it is pinched on the side in Devon. There were also pasties made with a flap of dough on the inside that served as a seperator where the savory filling was placed in 2/3rds of the pastie, and a fruit filling with a thickener such as flour was placed in the other third, making the pastie truly a meal, complete with desert. Pasties are common in more places than in England and Michigan's U.P. it seems. There is a version in Mexico, in Montana, and other states where Englanders settled and mined. In Michigan and Minnesota, the miners worked in copper and iron mines rather than in coal mines. I also understand that the difference between an empenada and a pasty is that in the pasty, the filling put into the pastry raw, and cooked with the pastry, while in an empenada, the filling is pre-cooked. There is much to learn about the humble pasty. All I know is that it makes a delicious meal. In my home town, an enterprizing pizzaria made pizza pasties that were to die for (and it was rich enough that it just might if you ate it often enough). The thing was made simiply by folding the prepared pizza in half before cooking it, pinching the edges, and baking until golden brown. But since the fillings were pre-cooked, I guess you would more correctly call it a calzone. Whatever you call it, it was the best pizza product available, anywhere! (IMHO of course).

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North

[Andy M.]

Originally Posted by Goodweed of the North

...I also understand that the difference between an empenada and a pasty is that in the pasty, the filling put into the pastry raw, and cooked with the pastry,...

GW, I have an issue with this statement. i'm not at all sure a raw meat filling would cook properly in the time it took for the dough to cook through.

Also, I would expect that pasties are often made with leftovers, thus precooked fillings.

As you know, there are versions of the pastie, empanada, turnover, calzone, bereg, etc. in most countries. There are regional differences that make each unique. None is more original than the other. They are all meals that are easy to handle on the go.

[Selkie]

As I understand, empanadas are larger than a pastie and designed for a group meal, depending on the country of origin, whereas a calzone is closer in type to a pastie and is an individual serving.

Pastie filling can be cooked in the dough or separately depending on what it is, but the dough pouch is not always meant to be eaten, and may just be used as a vessel to be eaten from.

[Moon Flower]

Originally Posted by Goodweed of the North

There is some controversy in England whether pasties originated in Cornwall, or Devon, as both areas lay claim to the pastry. As I understand it, in Corwall, the seam is pinched together on top of the pastry, and it is pinched on the side in Devon. There were also pasties made with a flap of dough on the inside that served as a seperator where the savory filling was placed in 2/3rds of the pastie, and a fruit filling with a thickener such as flour was placed in the other third, making the pastie truly a meal, complete with desert. Pasties are common in more places than in England and Michigan's U.P. it seems. There is a version in Mexico, in Montana, and other states where Englanders settled and mined. In Michigan and Minnesota, the miners worked in copper and iron mines rather than in coal mines. I also understand that the difference between an empenada and a pasty is that in the pasty, the filling put into the pastry raw, and cooked with the pastry, while in an empenada, the filling is pre-cooked. There is much to learn about the humble pasty. All I know is that it makes a delicious meal. In my home town, an enterprizing pizzaria made pizza pasties that were to die for (and it was rich enough that it just might if you ate it often enough). The thing was made simiply by folding the prepared pizza in half before cooking it, pinching the edges, and baking until golden brown. But since the fillings were pre-cooked, I guess you would more correctly call it a calzone. Whatever you call it, it was the best pizza product available, anywhere! (IMHO of course).

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North

Well, I be an English girl who has roots from Cornwall, but way back generations. Traditionally, only meat and veg cooked are placed onto pastry and sealed before baking. I have seen a pasties being made, both in a family house in Falmouth, Cornwall and in one of the town's long established bakery. Why raw meat is never put into pasties and then cooked, I haven't a clue.

It's the way the Cornish do it. They made claim and I'll believe it because the proof of the eating... the pasty I ate was terrefic! And I had another one.

As for Devonians claiming the pasty be theirs, it's a bit like saying Cumberland pie was invented in London.

[Andy M.]

Originally Posted by Selkie

As I understand, empanadas are larger than a pastie and designed for a group meal, depending on the country of origin, whereas a calzone is closer in type to a pastie and is an individual serving.

Pastie filling can be cooked in the dough or separately depending on what it is, but the dough pouch is not always meant to be eaten, and may just be used as a vessel to be eaten from.

That's interesting. I never considered the crust as a container that is not eaten along with the filling. Live and learn.

On the other hand, empanadas I've seen are relatively small with several making a meal and the calzones sold around here are often larger and meant to be sliced for serving to several people.

Just more variations in the world of food.

[Selkie]

Empanadas - calzones, calzones - empanadas...

Everyone seems to put their own particular twist on the classics, making it a new regional dish. It makes tracing the roots of particular foods darn near impossible to uncover! Unless a dish is mentioned in an authentic cookbook from a certain period, the transitions can only be guessed at.

The problem lays in the fact that most cooks are, or want to be, a creative lot with very few recipes staying the same for very long, and the original recipe just fades away. It's too bad there isn't some form of DNA trail to follow. C'est la vie!

[Andy M.]

Originally Posted by Selkie

...The problem lays in the fact that most cooks are, or want to be, a creative lot with very few recipes staying the same for very long, and the original recipe just fades away. It's too bad there isn't some form of DNA trail to follow. C'est la vie!

That's it exactly. Food knows no country or political border. There is no one recipe for the classics. Everyone has their own version.

[Barbara L]

Originally Posted by Andy M.

That's it exactly. Food knows no country or political border. There is no one recipe for the classics. Everyone has their own version.

Yep! If ten people in various areas of the world are faced with the same ingredients, it is very likely that they would all make something similar. There would be variations, but a couple of them are likely to be nearly identical. So some dishes really could originate in more than one place, if you think about it.

Barbara

[retiredguy]

Rutabaga are imo an acquired taste I happen to like them and couldn't find any seeds to plant this year.

Years ago I planted some and we didn't really appreciate it. The wife made a potato like soup out of them that was absolutely delicious. Well now she can't remember doing that but I still remember how great that soup was when we came in from ice fishing.

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

I never had to aquire a taste for the humble rutabaga. We always had them with the thanksgiving meal, or in New England Boiled Dinner, and of course in pasties. My favorite way to eat them is boiled until tender, and mashed, with a little brown sugar, salt, and sometimes, a bit of black pepper. My favorite veggie at Thanksgiving used to be sweet potatoes, which I still love, but I like the rutabagas better, and so do all but one of my children. She's just the opposite, with the sweep spud being her favorite, and the rutabaga coming in second. I think the sweet spuds are more nutritious. They are a powerhouse of good things.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North