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Old 08-21-2005, 01:16 AM   #71
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One of the problems I have with tipping is that sometimes things like the following happen. My mom and I went to one of our favorite Mexican restaurants, which was empty when we went in. It was a small local place. Right after we sat down, the other tables began to fill up with businessmen on their lunch breaks. Our server knew we were there because she had greeted us when we walked in and sat down. We sat for 15-20 minutes and our order was never taken. She took the orders of every man who walked in as soon as they were seated (walking by us many times). I'm sure she would have gotten around to us when she was finished with all the men, but after 15-20 minutes we walked out. It appeared that she decided to serve the ones she expected a better tip from first.

The other problem I have is with automatic tips. I won't eat somewhere that automatically deducts a tip. We tip pretty well, but we feel it should be up to us.

Barbara
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Old 08-21-2005, 01:25 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by ironchef
Tips is from the acronym To Insure Proper Service. It was originally intended to be given BEFORE a service was performed, so that the definition of the acronym could hold true. How it evolved into what it is today, I have no idea.
Check this out here:

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm


Origins: Once again our lust for interesting backstories to everyday words has led many to believe that 'tip' (used in the sense of a gratuity) came into the English language as an acronym, a word formed by combining the initial letters of a name or series of words. Disappointingly, there were no 'TIPS'-labelled boxes into which thirsty pub patrons of centuries past stuffed their offerings in efforts to keep the libations flowing -- 'tip' entered our lexicon in much more mundane fashion. We've yet to find an acronym that predates the 20th century, and 'tip' (used in the sense of a gratuity) is much older than that.

'Tip' as an acronym appears to have three primary "explanations," none of them valid:
  • To Insure Promptness
  • To Insure Performance
  • To Insure Prompt Service

Each of the "explanations" is long on fanciful theory and short on practicality. Although handing over a gratuity prior to the act might inspire the one receiving the largesse to provide a higher level of service, there is nothing "insured" about the transaction. (Actually, that should more properly be "ensured," not "insured," but those who make up false etymologies are seldom troubled by small details, especially ones that would transform 'tips' into 'teps.') A waiter generously pre-greased is just as capable of delivering poor service as one who is not tipped until the meal has been served and cleared and the bill presented. Indeed, tipping up front might well prove counterproductive in that the provision of the palm oil before the act removes a substantial portion of the incentive to perform admirably. The money's already being in the pocket, so to speak, lessens the server's interest in making sure that all goes well.

Some maintain that a tip is not furnished ahead of time, so the above explication does not 'disprove' the acronymic claim. In that case one once again has to wonder where the 'insure' part of the false etymologies comes from, since the act being recognized with a gratuity has already been carried out. The service was either good or it wasn't; no gratuity, no matter how large, enables anyone to go back into time and 'insure' that whatever has already taken place will be satisfactory.

'Tip' is an old word, and it has nothing to do with either acronyms or the act of attempting to influence quality of service. Although the word has many meanings, both as a verb and as a noun, the use of the term as it applies to monetary rewards to servants dates to the 1700s. It first appeared in this context as a verb ("Then I, Sir, tips me the Verger with half a Crown" from the 1706 George Farquhar play The Beaux Stratagem) and was first recorded as a noun in 1755. However, the use of 'tip' to describe the act of giving something to another (where that list of possible 'somethings' could include small sums of money, intelligence on horse races, or the latest silly joke) goes back to 1610. 'Tip' slipped into the language as underworld slang, with the verb 'to tip' (meaning 'to give to or share with') being used by shady characters as part of the then-current argot of petty criminals. Nowadays this use of 'tip' has become entirely respectable, but it is amusing that the usage began its linguistic life as tough guy jargon. One wonders if future generations will similarly discover that some of their everyday terms sprang from scenes in The Godfather or were first voiced in episodes of The Sopranos.

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Old 08-21-2005, 02:09 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara L
One of the problems I have with tipping is that sometimes things like the following happen. My mom and I went to one of our favorite Mexican restaurants, which was empty when we went in. It was a small local place. Right after we sat down, the other tables began to fill up with businessmen on their lunch breaks. Our server knew we were there because she had greeted us when we walked in and sat down. We sat for 15-20 minutes and our order was never taken. She took the orders of every man who walked in as soon as they were seated (walking by us many times). I'm sure she would have gotten around to us when she was finished with all the men, but after 15-20 minutes we walked out. It appeared that she decided to serve the ones she expected a better tip from first.
Barbara
Are you sure she was your waitress? Sometimes I get stared down by tables that aren't mine. I agree that is too long to wait, but because of mixed communication maybe she thought you were her co-workers table and vice versa. Just a thought.
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Old 08-21-2005, 02:27 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by corazon90
Are you sure she was your waitress? Sometimes I get stared down by tables that aren't mine. I agree that is too long to wait, but because of mixed communication maybe she thought you were her co-workers table and vice versa. Just a thought.
She was the only one. It was a small family run place with about 10-15 tables in one room.

Barbara
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Old 08-21-2005, 03:44 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara L
Check this out here:

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm


Origins: Once again our lust for interesting backstories to everyday words has led many to believe that 'tip' (used in the sense of a gratuity) came into the English language as an acronym, a word formed by combining the initial letters of a name or series of words. Disappointingly, there were no 'TIPS'-labelled boxes into which thirsty pub patrons of centuries past stuffed their offerings in efforts to keep the libations flowing -- 'tip' entered our lexicon in much more mundane fashion. We've yet to find an acronym that predates the 20th century, and 'tip' (used in the sense of a gratuity) is much older than that.

'Tip' as an acronym appears to have three primary "explanations," none of them valid:
  • To Insure Promptness
  • To Insure Performance
  • To Insure Prompt Service
Each of the "explanations" is long on fanciful theory and short on practicality. Although handing over a gratuity prior to the act might inspire the one receiving the largesse to provide a higher level of service, there is nothing "insured" about the transaction. (Actually, that should more properly be "ensured," not "insured," but those who make up false etymologies are seldom troubled by small details, especially ones that would transform 'tips' into 'teps.') A waiter generously pre-greased is just as capable of delivering poor service as one who is not tipped until the meal has been served and cleared and the bill presented. Indeed, tipping up front might well prove counterproductive in that the provision of the palm oil before the act removes a substantial portion of the incentive to perform admirably. The money's already being in the pocket, so to speak, lessens the server's interest in making sure that all goes well.

Some maintain that a tip is not furnished ahead of time, so the above explication does not 'disprove' the acronymic claim. In that case one once again has to wonder where the 'insure' part of the false etymologies comes from, since the act being recognized with a gratuity has already been carried out. The service was either good or it wasn't; no gratuity, no matter how large, enables anyone to go back into time and 'insure' that whatever has already taken place will be satisfactory.

'Tip' is an old word, and it has nothing to do with either acronyms or the act of attempting to influence quality of service. Although the word has many meanings, both as a verb and as a noun, the use of the term as it applies to monetary rewards to servants dates to the 1700s. It first appeared in this context as a verb ("Then I, Sir, tips me the Verger with half a Crown" from the 1706 George Farquhar play The Beaux Stratagem) and was first recorded as a noun in 1755. However, the use of 'tip' to describe the act of giving something to another (where that list of possible 'somethings' could include small sums of money, intelligence on horse races, or the latest silly joke) goes back to 1610. 'Tip' slipped into the language as underworld slang, with the verb 'to tip' (meaning 'to give to or share with') being used by shady characters as part of the then-current argot of petty criminals. Nowadays this use of 'tip' has become entirely respectable, but it is amusing that the usage began its linguistic life as tough guy jargon. One wonders if future generations will similarly discover that some of their everyday terms sprang from scenes in The Godfather or were first voiced in episodes of The Sopranos.

******************************
Barbara
That was very informative. I've seen the acronym meaning of tips even in articles about etiquette, and it is the most common definition known today, probably because it's easy to remember.
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Old 08-21-2005, 04:52 AM   #76
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Tipping is not a guarantee against mediocre service! Yes, and that is why most of us, including myself, are against pre-tipping. Since the majority of restaurants do NOT add on a gratuity unless it is for a larger party, of course it is not guaranteed because the server does not know what they are getting. This has already been brought up.

Paying employees a living wage for good performance does not guarantee mediocrity! You are using this in a general sense only, and not focusing directly on the restaurant/hospitality industry, which is what it should be intended for. And you are also taking my point out of context and twisting it to your own words. I never said that paying employees a living wage for good performance does not guarantee mediocrity. I said that standardizing a pay(tips), which is directly related to, and is determined by good performance promotes apathy because there are no rewards for the good workers. Why should Joe give 5 star service when John gives 4 star service and he gets paid the same amount? This happens in Union (and Non, but more predominant in Union)hotels all the time. Almost nothing in life is guaranteed, and nowhere did I say it was guaranteed. I said that it would be encouraged, which is hardly the same as guaranteed. How many Union and Non-Union hotels and/or restaurants have you worked at so that you've actually observed and have had to actually deal with the differences, hands on? How many people in management positions do you know that have worked for both Union and Non-Union properties across the nation, that you've spoken with and compared experiences with? I rest my case.

Most of the world lives on wages and salaries that do not involve tipping and there are excellent performances daily everywhere in the world in every field of endeavor. If you are a poor performer, you get fired rather than getting a poor tip. You might as well be comparing apples and oranges. Why do we call "soccer" soccer and the rest of the world calls it football? Gosh darnit why can't we just call it football (or futbol) like everyone else? What's wrong with us? Who knows? There's no point in comparing the socioeconomics of America with another country to determine whether or not tipping influences the outcome of daily performance because it is not relavent. Most other countries have limited to no experience with it, so there is no possible way to compare or determine how they would react in the same type of system. Many countries do not have the luxuries that we do and therefore do not take as many things for granted that most Americans believe are "owed" to them. Jobs and employment are viewed differently. You're asking to simplify and discard the philosophies and lifestyles along with economic status' of entirely different countries to try and justify and compare your point.

If the waitstaff at that NY restaurant doesn't approve of the new policy, they can quit and work at another restaurant where tipping still exists. No one said that they wouldn't or couldn't. I don't know where you're coming from with this.

I am not oppposed to the current financial arrangement for waitstaff. I have been trying to 'argue' that the proposed method of a 20% surcharge could also work. That's fine, but where is your information or figures to back up this point? You bring an interesting idea to the table, but you don't embellish on how to make this happen. I've already explained that it is not as easy as raising all food and beverage prices by 20%. I've given you the figures and I've given you multiple reasons for it, under our current tax laws. You keep saying that it could work, but you have yet to disclose any type of action plan that would enable the success of your idea.
Again, I ask anyone who feels the same way as Andy to please propose a realistic plan of how to accomplish this. I'd be very interested in hearing it.
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Old 08-21-2005, 09:34 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchef
Again, I ask anyone who feels the same way as Andy to please propose a realistic plan of how to accomplish this. I'd be very interested in hearing it.
I don't have the details as I have never eaten in a country that does not use out tipping system, but I would propose that we adopt those types of systems. They are already tried and true plans that have worked. The country that it works in should not matter.
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Old 08-21-2005, 09:59 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by GB
I don't have the details as I have never eaten in a country that does not use out tipping system, but I would propose that we adopt those types of systems. They are already tried and true plans that have worked. The country that it works in should not matter.
They are not "tried and true plans". They are byproducts of an entire socioeconomic system. There is a distinct and substantial difference. Again I ask, how can that system realistically be implemented in America?
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Old 08-21-2005, 10:09 AM   #79
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How are they not tried and true? They have been used in these countries successfully for a very long time. That, to me, indicates tried and true.
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Old 08-21-2005, 10:21 AM   #80
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How are they not tried and true? They have been used in these countries successfully for a very long time. That, to me, indicates tried and true.
No one person, group, or committee actually sat down and laid out a plan for it. You said they were tried and true plans. Having never been to these countries, you do not know how their societies are, and WHY they find receiving tips offensive, versus where we don't. Like I said, they are by products of the country's socioecomonic system. They are tried and true because their society accepts it and abides by it. It is intertwined in their culture. That is why realistically, this type of system would never take place in our country.
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