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Old 04-21-2008, 09:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Barbara L View Post
I hadn't really thought about it that way, but you're right. I love the analogy!

Barbara
If I bought a dress with a problem I would return it, I think just about anyone would. Then again if I bought a dress and it wasn't for DW... well that is a whole nother issue...
But I have never met anyone, before you guys, that would be OK with being told "I am sorry you can't eat here because two of my waitress' just called in sick".
Nope, I think more realistically that would start a whole nother argument, and I imagine a lot of people would be put off and not go back. Better to risk someone waiting an extra amount of time for service and being agitated then stomping out after being told that and never coming back.
There is a lot of risk in the restaurant business, having worked there I guess I can understand where they are coming from. Seating them is a risk, they may or may not come back. Turning them away is lost business, you can't get that back no matter what you do.
I really think anyone who places such demanding and exacting standards on people in any service industry really should be made to spend some time in that service industry. It has a tendency to change people, which is probably why so many are so quick to dismiss the idea or find any excuse they can to invalidate the idea.
Walk a mile in their shoes so to speak... worst case you are a mile away and have their shoes to boot!
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:26 PM   #52
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...But I have never met anyone, before you guys, that would be OK with being told "I am sorry you can't eat here because two of my waitress' just called in sick".

...I really think anyone who places such demanding and exacting standards on people in any service industry really should be made to spend some time in that service industry...

I have been to a restaurant where I had to wait and wondered why, when there were plenty of empty tables. I asked and was told there weren't enough servers. I wasn't "OK" with it but understood their predicament and their way of handling it.

No disrespect intended but "baloney". I don't have to spend time as a waiter (or chef) to have the right to demand my money's worth when I eat out. I don't have to be a surgeon to demand my surgery is done well. etc.

All I ask is that any establishment provide the advertised products and services I agreed to pay for.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:50 PM   #53
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No disrespect intended, but like I said...

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Originally Posted by Maverick2272 View Post
It has a tendency to change people, which is probably why so many are so quick to dismiss the idea or find any excuse they can to invalidate the idea.
Big difference between getting what I paid for, and demanding more than one would ever expect of themselves in their shoes. I guess it comes back to that 'Well it's not my fault you couldn't get a real job like me' mentality that seems to be so pervasive these days.

So I have respect for the working class, employ compassion and understanding, try to keep perspective and treat others with the same dignity and respect I would demand, and what I am the bad guy?

Stop the planet, I want off...
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:08 PM   #54
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...So I have respect for the working class, employ compassion and understanding, try to keep perspective and treat others with the same dignity and respect I would demand, and what I am the bad guy?

Stop the planet, I want off...

This is NOT about a lack of respect for the working class. You are not a bad guy for being respectful to any other person. You are also not a bad guy for wanting fair value for your money.

On the contrary, this is about a lack of respect for the customer. If the kitchen screws up my meal, I expect them to make it right. If the server is late delivering my food and it's cold, my finding that not acceptable is not a sign of disrespect for the server.

When you go into a restaurant, there is an implied contract. The restaurant agrees to deliver a well prepared meal made with wholesome ingredients in a timely manner, etc. In return, I agree to give them my money. The server, acting as an employee of the restaurant, is there to enhance, not degrade that exchange.

Showing my displeasure with poor service by modifying my tip is the only way of meaningfully expressing my displeasure.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:52 PM   #55
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This is NOT about a lack of respect for the working class. You are not a bad guy for being respectful to any other person. You are also not a bad guy for wanting fair value for your money.

On the contrary, this is about a lack of respect for the customer. If the kitchen screws up my meal, I expect them to make it right. If the server is late delivering my food and it's cold, my finding that not acceptable is not a sign of disrespect for the server.

When you go into a restaurant, there is an implied contract. The restaurant agrees to deliver a well prepared meal made with wholesome ingredients in a timely manner, etc. In return, I agree to give them my money. The server, acting as an employee of the restaurant, is there to enhance, not degrade that exchange.

Showing my displeasure with poor service by modifying my tip is the only way of meaningfully expressing my displeasure.
And I am not arguing with that, I feel the same way. But I am saying there is a difference between asking to get what you paid for, and demanding something unreasonable. Some of the posts I have read imply they expect something unreasonable, I am not saying you are, and I don't think you are.

Taking your surgery example. We both expect to get what we paid for, for the implied contract to be fulfilled. In this case, for the surgeon to do it right. I think I would be pretty ticked off if he had messed it up cause he was more worried about his golf game. Well actually I probably wouldn't be around to be ticked off, so I guess DW would be for me.
But is it also reasonable and part of the implied contract to assume that when you wake up you will be assigned your own personal nurse? That said nurse will be there 24hrs a day until you are released? That she will sleep on a cot in your room and avail herself to you at all times, interrupting her sleeping, her eating, her doing anything to immediately take care of you?
Or reasonable to call the surgeon in and chew him out for a good 1/2 hour because the scar left by his incision was not perfectly straight?
I don't think so, but yes I do expect them to answer the call button in a timely manner, and I do expect the incision to be closed.
See, there is a difference. I think you see a difference too, and I think you are a reasonable person, but I also think some posters wouldn't see a difference, and would wonder what in the world I was talking about.

I have seen a lot of this else where as well. I have known several bar owners and restaurant owners over the years.
I have seen cases where they turned people away because too many employees called in sick, and even though they explained exactly why they couldn't wait on the person, that person still went around town claiming they were turned away for no good reason and insulted by being denied service and never came back. They also got others to go along with them and drop their patronage.
But when they seat and serve people even though they are short handed, they get complaints but the customers still come back. As a restaurant owner, which course of action would you choose?

I think it is great that you, while upset, would still at least understand and be OK with it. But you are in the minority, according to my and their personal experiences, and they can't bet on the minority. They have to go with the majority, and some opinions I have read indicate that while they would reduce the tip on the waitress for being too busy to properly care for them, they wouldn't necessarily stop going unless of course it happened every time they went.

And while it would be great if the waitress could just tell you she these reasons and save her tip, the tip just isn't worth her job and so she takes the heat and loss all to put food on the table for her family. Because if she does tell you, and you take it up with the management as that is the appropriate action, the management will of course know how you found out and she will soon be looking for a new job. That I have seen first hand as well.

And that is what I wanted people to see and understand...
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Maverick2272 View Post
If I bought a dress with a problem I would return it, I think just about anyone would. Then again if I bought a dress and it wasn't for DW... well that is a whole nother issue...
But I have never met anyone, before you guys, that would be OK with being told "I am sorry you can't eat here because two of my waitress' just called in sick".
Nope, I think more realistically that would start a whole nother argument, and I imagine a lot of people would be put off and not go back. Better to risk someone waiting an extra amount of time for service and being agitated then stomping out after being told that and never coming back.
There is a lot of risk in the restaurant business, having worked there I guess I can understand where they are coming from. Seating them is a risk, they may or may not come back. Turning them away is lost business, you can't get that back no matter what you do.
I really think anyone who places such demanding and exacting standards on people in any service industry really should be made to spend some time in that service industry. It has a tendency to change people, which is probably why so many are so quick to dismiss the idea or find any excuse they can to invalidate the idea.
Walk a mile in their shoes so to speak... worst case you are a mile away and have their shoes to boot!
I know that there are often good reasons for things like that. And I am one of the most understanding people you will ever meet. But I still thought it was an interesting analogy. If you look back to my other posts, the only times I have ever withheld a tip or complained was for rudeness.

Barbara
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:25 AM   #57
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I know that there are often good reasons for things like that. And I am one of the most understanding people you will ever meet. But I still thought it was an interesting analogy. If you look back to my other posts, the only times I have ever withheld a tip or complained was for rudeness.

Barbara
I agree, I liked the analogy. But I moved beyond that and was speaking of the kind of person that buys a $15 dress at K-Mart but expects the same quality as a $1500 dress custom made by a high end exclusive company.
If you paid for the $1500 dress and got the $15 dress sure you would be upset, but the other way around is not reasonable.
My experience shows me this puts you and Andy in the minority who are reasonable, and most restaurants don't cater to the minority, they do what the majority want so the majority come back again.
Which got to my final point, which is that it bugs me when someone in the majority helps create the condition, then whines about the condition and allows for no understanding or compassion or at least acknowledges some responsibility.
It's like going out and campaigning and contributing to get the speed limit in residential areas lowered to 20 and you are successful, but then complaining later because you got a ticket for going 25 in a residential area...

So here you have some who detracts from or completely eliminates the tip because the waitress was too busy to care for them to their standards, but it is because they were short staffed, but they wouldn't have come back if you had turned them away, so you were forced to seat them to keep that from happening, but then they got mad because the service wasn't up to par.

Now I feel dizzy...
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:11 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Maverick2272 View Post
No disrespect intended, but like I said...



Big difference between getting what I paid for, and demanding more than one would ever expect of themselves in their shoes. I guess it comes back to that 'Well it's not my fault you couldn't get a real job like me' mentality that seems to be so pervasive these days.

So I have respect for the working class, employ compassion and understanding, try to keep perspective and treat others with the same dignity and respect I would demand, and what I am the bad guy?

Stop the planet, I want off...
I don't see how expecting to get good service is showing a lack of respect or compassion for the working class. It's got nothing to do with treating others with dignity or respect. It's about getting what is paid for. When you go to a restaurant, you expect to be served in a timely and pleasant fashion.
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:17 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Maverick2272 View Post
I agree, I liked the analogy. But I moved beyond that and was speaking of the kind of person that buys a $15 dress at K-Mart but expects the same quality as a $1500 dress custom made by a high end exclusive company.
If you paid for the $1500 dress and got the $15 dress sure you would be upset, but the other way around is not reasonable.
My experience shows me this puts you and Andy in the minority who are reasonable, and most restaurants don't cater to the minority, they do what the majority want so the majority come back again.
Which got to my final point, which is that it bugs me when someone in the majority helps create the condition, then whines about the condition and allows for no understanding or compassion or at least acknowledges some responsibility.
It's like going out and campaigning and contributing to get the speed limit in residential areas lowered to 20 and you are successful, but then complaining later because you got a ticket for going 25 in a residential area...

So here you have some who detracts from or completely eliminates the tip because the waitress was too busy to care for them to their standards, but it is because they were short staffed, but they wouldn't have come back if you had turned them away, so you were forced to seat them to keep that from happening, but then they got mad because the service wasn't up to par.

Now I feel dizzy...
You are quite adept at putting words in my mouth....and I'm not really interested in arguing the point further. You can put me in the minority, if you must insist it actually exists, that I'd rather know a restaurant couldn't accomodate me properly than suffer through shoddy service or less than perfect food. I've returned to places I wanted to frequent when they could accomodate me properly.
Your insistence that I'm being unreasonable, or expecting an unreasonable amount of attention from the staff is preposterous. The fact that I believe it's to be expected is what seems to get under your skin. I could be wrong, and I'll admit to that, if I am. However, every time I make any type of response regarding the service industry and what I expect, you seem to get upset by my responses. This isn't meant to be personal, Maverick. Perhaps my standards are different than yours, but that doesn't make me or my standards wrong or unreasonable. It surely doesn't make me incompassionate or disrespectful. To assume I am and to write it, here, is insulting. I never said anything about 15 dollar dresses versus 1500 dollar dresses. My analogy is plain and simple. If I'm paying for a product or a service, I'm not going to finish the product or service myself if the provider didn't or couldn't do it right. I'm going to voice my disapproval and take my business elsewhere. I work too hard for my money to settle for any less. And again, this isn't meant to be a personal attack to you or someone you know. I'm in the hospitality business myself, working long hard days on my feet from start to end. Do not lecture me on respecting people in the industry. I am part of that industry and know what is expected, both front of the house, and back. If I'm expected to deliver, than I expect the same in return.
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:31 PM   #60
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It seems to me that a restaurant shouldn't necessarily turn people away when they are understaffed, but maybe tell the customers that that are short-staffed and are welcome to stay but there may be some delays. I have had that happen before. If I have time, I stay. If I don't, I go somewhere else but it doesn't prevent me from returning to that restaurant another night.
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