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Old 05-09-2016, 04:25 PM   #11
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"Herbalism... was never meant to be a substitute for surgery."

You should look into the history of medicine a bit more. You are completely wrong here.
I suggest you supply the evidence for this since you are the one that is mistaken I feel.

Herbs are often deemed beneficial in the run up to a surgery procedure and also after it, i.e. not to replace it!
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:29 PM   #12
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I'm very sorry about what happened to your mother. I truly am. Nothing created by imperfect human beings is perfect, and when something like that happens, it's very difficult to view the situation dispassionately. I could counter it with my own story, but that's not the point. The point is that, much more often than not, modern medicine as a whole works well for most people who use it.
I would not disagree with that but, equally, I wonder if you are open minded enough to realise that natural therapies work very well for most people who use them too.....
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:08 PM   #13
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I would not disagree with that but, equally, I wonder if you are open minded enough to realise that natural therapies work very well for most people who use them too.....
If you can show me double-blinded, peer-reviewed, published clinical trials that prove that, yes, I'll be very open-minded. The reasons for these caveats are:

- double blinding reduces as much as possible the placebo effect and bias on the part of researchers and subjects
- peer review ensures as much as possible that the study design, data collection, data analysis and conclusions are supported and take into account previously known information about the subject of the experiment
- publishing allows other experts in the field to evaluate and critique the trials

There's no reason not to hold alternative medicine to the same standards as conventional medicine.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:10 PM   #14
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I suggest you supply the evidence for this since you are the one that is mistaken I feel.

Herbs are often deemed beneficial in the run up to a surgery procedure and also after it, i.e. not to replace it!
You made the initial claim. It's up to you to prove it.

Maybe after dinner, I'll look into it some. In the meantime, do a search on "ancient treatments for cancer," particularly Chinese and Indian.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:43 PM   #15
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You made the initial claim. It's up to you to prove it.

Maybe after dinner, I'll look into it some. In the meantime, do a search on "ancient treatments for cancer," particularly Chinese and Indian.
I have had confirmation of what I said via a health forum. I put the situation to them, i.e. that you claim herbalism was meant to be used in place of surgery and I refuted this and said that herbalism had its place but was not meant to be a substitute for surgery.

Before I submitted my 2nd post here on this, # 11 above, (qualifying that outlining that herbs can be of benefit used on the run up to operations and thereafter to aid in recovery i.e. not instead of an operation), I had received a reply saying just this! Also, many sites confirm this so I would ask you to supply what you claim, since you say I am wrong, notably that you think herbalism was meant to be used in place of surgery.

Since you now mention cancer, perhaps you do not know about the beneficial effect that visualisation can have on cancer?

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abou.../visualisation

Not everything in past history will hold up of course, just as old understandings of conventional medicine have now been improved on.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:48 PM   #16
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If you can show me double-blinded, peer-reviewed, published clinical trials that prove that, yes, I'll be very open-minded. The reasons for these caveats are:

- double blinding reduces as much as possible the placebo effect and bias on the part of researchers and subjects
- peer review ensures as much as possible that the study design, data collection, data analysis and conclusions are supported and take into account previously known information about the subject of the experiment
- publishing allows other experts in the field to evaluate and critique the trials

There's no reason not to hold alternative medicine to the same standards as conventional medicine.
You and your impossibly restrictive conditions whereby you would deem it conducive to consider natural therapies! Ha!

We must mix in very different circles since I am surrounded by those who are walking confirmations of the benefit of applying natural therapies. I could catalogue all that I have applied that works but it would be far too extensive and I feel that direct experience is not enough for you. Presumably you think we are lying? Natural therapies/remedies definitely have a lot going for them (although, of course, there are some grey areas) just as there are (considerable) drawbacks/contraindications in conventional medicine.

I guess nothing short of having us wired up in a lab would suffice for you. Never mind.
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:57 PM   #17
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Have you read any books by John McPhee? My husband has several. This one speaks to what you're saying: The Control of Nature

For our California friends, there's a section about attempts to control the effects of the fire/rain/landslide cycle around Los Angeles. Excellent book.
No, I have not read him.
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:21 PM   #18
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You and your impossibly restrictive conditions whereby you would deem it conducive to consider natural therapies! Ha!
Why is it an impossible expectation that "natural therapies" meet the same standards as conventional medicine?
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Old 05-10-2016, 05:35 AM   #19
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Why is it an impossible expectation that "natural therapies" meet the same standards as conventional medicine?
It's not but you are overlooking what I said in my previous post above # 16, i.e. I have exceeded such criteria and depicted real life cases of where natural therapies work, i.e. I am surrounded by this evidence with those that I know!

So your stipulation for such criteria is rendered redundant since it's a bit like you saying I am not sure that recipe will result in a cake when all around me I see those chomping happily into such good cake! Do you see that? If you do not accept this then all I can say that it is your loss/myopia.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:22 AM   #20
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You are ignoring the facts that led to the development of the scientific method: in general, people tend to see cause and effect where they don't exist and they don't acknowledge the placebo effect or confirmation bias or the fact that many conditions that people complain about are self-limiting, meaning they go away with no intervention.

Without taking these into account and carefully recording medical histories, treatments and outcomes, you simply can't be sure whether a given treatment had any effect.

I'm done with this. If you want to discuss the initial post, let's get back to that.
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