Singing the praises of the "natural" life

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It is clear that nothing I could say would ever be enough to persuade you. I am familiar with the placebo effect but the results I have seen in myself and others are not down to being "all in our head". Ha.. Never mind. I, too, am done with this.
 
It is clear that nothing I could say would ever be enough to persuade you. I am familiar with the placebo effect but the results I have seen in myself and others are not down to being "all in our head". Ha.. Never mind. I, too, am done with this.

Sorry, but you standing there saying, "I know it worked!" is not proof.

Please don't misrepresent what I said. My point is that correlation does not equal causation and so rigorously designed studies are necessary to prove that an intervention has an effect. Here are a few fun graphs that illustrate that principle: Spurious Correlations
 
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Sorry, but you standing there saying, "I know it worked!" is not proof.
When there is a sudden, marked improvement in someone's condition from undergoing a natural therapy - which can be despite their own scepticism i.e. far from being a placebo effect - then THIS is the proof!
Direct experience is a valid form of truth. Science is not the be and all of truth. It has limitations!

Incidentally I suppose you know that complimentary therapies work well alongside orthodox medicine....
 
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When there is a sudden, marked improvement in someone's condition from undergoing a natural therapy - which can be despite their own scepticism i.e. far from being a placebo effect - then THIS is the proof!

No. It is not. The fact that one thing followed another does not mean that the first thing caused the second. That's a logical fallacy.

Incidentally I suppose you know that complimentary therapies work well alongside orthodox medicine....

I know people use them together. I wouldn't necessarily say it works well. It can be quite dangerous.

Recent studies have found that a greater number of supplements than previously thought may affect the way certain enzymes in the body metabolize drugs. Some supplements may inhibit the enzymes’ ability to break down a drug and clear it from the body, causing medication to build up to potentially toxic levels and even cause overdose. Other supplements may increase the rate at which a drug is broken down, clearing it from the body too quickly to be effective.

As herbal supplements gain in popularity, medical researchers are studying the interactions and side effects supplements have on prescription medications. Botanicals, for example, can interfere with drug-metabolizing enzymes in the liver, stomach and intestines and proteins in the blood that can alter the way drugs are distributed throughout the body.

How Your Supplements Interact With Prescription Drugs - WSJ
 
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No. It is not. The fact that one thing followed another does not mean that the first thing caused the second. That's a logical fallacy.
When all things are equal, i.e. the only thing that has changed in the patient's life is the natural therapy treatment, then it is not unreasonable to suppose that any positive change is due to this. Logically! :)
I know people use them together. I wouldn't necessarily say it works well. It can be quite dangerous.
Dangerous? Really? You think doctors would recommend complimentary therapies if they thought this? This would suggest you do not have confidence in doctors to confidently administer treatment.

As for providing a link on supplements and how they may interact with drugs, I can't help noticing you cherrypick your info deliberately just to try and diss anything natural. If you were being more honest then you would have also included a truer appraisal of this situation, e.g. some drugs are not to be taken with alcohol, other drugs, grapefruit juice etc.

 
When all things are equal, i.e. the only thing that has changed in the patient's life is the natural therapy treatment, then it is not unreasonable to suppose that any positive change is due to this. Logically! :)

Right. So if I take echinachea, my cold will go away in seven days. If I take nothing, it will be gone in a week. Clearly it must be the herb :rolleyes:

Dangerous? Really? You think doctors would recommend complimentary therapies if they thought this? This would suggest you do not have confidence in doctors to confidently administer treatment.

As for providing a link on supplements and how they may interact with drugs, I can't help noticing you cherrypick your info deliberately just to try and diss anything natural. If you were being more honest then you would have also included a truer appraisal of this situation, e.g. some drugs are not to be taken with alcohol, other drugs, grapefruit juice etc.


Yes, really. Most medical doctors don't recommend alternative "therapies" because they're unproven and are not part of the standard of care. It would put them at high risk of being sued for malpractice. If you're talking about naturopaths, they're not real doctors, so they don't count. Don't put words in my mouth.

We're not talking about actual medical treatment here - we're talking about so-called "natural" remedies that believers in pseudoscience claim are all good with no possibility of side effects or negative interactions. Because natural. Clearly that's not true.
 
Herbalism has its place and was never meant to be a substitute for surgery.

Back to the beginning. Appendicitis is an infection. Before antibiotics were available, people tried to treat infections with herbs. So they were using herbs instead of surgery. Now that we have X-rays, CT scans and antibiotics, we don't need to let people die of infections anymore.

I'm not going to link to sites discussing this because I don't want to increase their search engine rankings. If you care to, you can find them yourself.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Anc...&oq=Ancient+medicine+herbs+to+treat+infection
 
Right. So if I take echinachea, my cold will go away in seven days. If I take nothing, it will be gone in a week. Clearly it must be the herb :rolleyes:
Your knowledge is old, i.e. out of date. It is now known that echinacea is not effective for bacterial infections.

Yes, really. Most medical doctors don't recommend alternative "therapies" because they're unproven and are not part of the standard of care. It would put them at high risk of being sued for malpractice. If you're talking about naturopaths, they're not real doctors, so they don't count. Don't put words in my mouth.

We're not talking about actual medical treatment here - we're talking about so-called "natural" remedies that believers in pseudoscience claim are all good with no possibility of side effects or negative interactions. Because natural. Clearly that's not true.
I thought as much - you display your lack of knowledge by not discerning the difference between complimentary therapies and alternative therapies. There IS a difference, i.e. complimentary therapies ARE used with orthodox medicine....at least here in UK.

Also, I forgot to say, with your link to say what supplements are not to be used with certain drugs, this information would be made clear (in a leaflet inside the medicine packet) - at least it is here in UK. It would also say what other drugs it clashes with and what else not to take with it e.g. alcohol, grapefruit juice etc.

You are making a sweeping statement here that is blatantly not representative of natural remedies re. that there cannot be side effects. Of course it would be foolish to use anything in excess i.e. it would have consequences. That's a no brainer. Your sledgehammer style of attack belies you wanting to give a realistic appraisal of the situation....poor show!
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Back to the beginning. Appendicitis is an infection. Before antibiotics were available, people tried to treat infections with herbs. So they were using herbs instead of surgery. Now that we have X-rays, CT scans and antibiotics, we don't need to let people die of infections anymore.
Oh come on...that is a very poor, redundant argument! Ha - laughable! Back then nothing else was available i.e. we didn't have the benefits of technology that we do now. This is hardly the same thing as saying that herbalism is now used to take the place of operations - that is a false statement! As mentioned, herbalism can be used beneficially with the run up to an operation and also to aid recovery afterward.
 
Your knowledge is old, i.e. out of date. It is now known that echinacea is not effective for bacterial infections.

Apparently you don’t recognize an illustration when you see one. The specific herb is not the point. The point is that some conditions will improve whether there's an intervention or not. So giving someone something and seeing them improve does *not* mean the thing caused the improvement. That’s one reason “natural” remedies are a waste of time and money.

You are making a sweeping statement here that is blatantly not representative of natural remedies re. that there cannot be side effects. Of course it would be foolish to use anything in excess i.e. it would have consequences. That's a no brainer. Your sledgehammer style of attack belies you wanting to give a realistic appraisal of the situation....poor show!

It is not *I* who makes that claim. It is supporters and practitioners of “natural” remedies who say that. And they’re not talking about overuse. The idea is that if it’s natural, it must be safe, because it’s natural. Circular, illogical reasoning that ignores things like lead, tobacco, arsenic, etc.

It’s ridiculous that after every statement, I have to tell you that you’ve missed the point, and then try to explain it again, and then watch you twist my words again. I don’t know whether you are being deliberately argumentative or you really don’t understand what I’m saying, but it’s clear from that and your insulting manner that instead of proving your point you prefer to attack me. Which of course undermines your argument.
 
Oh come on...that is a very poor, redundant argument! Ha - laughable! Back then nothing else was available i.e. we didn't have the benefits of technology that we do now. This is hardly the same thing as saying that herbalism is now used to take the place of operations - that is a false statement! As mentioned, herbalism can be used beneficially with the run up to an operation and also to aid recovery afterward.

I never said that. You really must stop putting words in my mouth.

YOU said herbalism was NEVER MEANT to replace surgery. That story in the article shows that you are wrong - people in the past did try to treat all kinds of things with herbs, with blood-letting, with lots of unproven "therapies."

Herbs and other "natural" remedies are still used by some people to try to treat infections and other conditions that require medical treatment. Like this one:

Parents of toddler who died of meningitis used home remedies rather than consult doctor, court hears - Calgary - CBC News


A southern Alberta couple accused of allowing their meningitis-infected toddler to die four years ago tried home remedies such as olive leaf extract and whey protein rather than take him to a doctor, a Lethbridge jury heard Monday.
...

Crown counsel played an audio tape from a police officer who interviewed the couple after hospital staff called police.

On the tape, Collet Stephan tells the officer a friend, who is a nurse, told the couple the boy likely had meningitis.

Home remedies given as condition deteriorated

In a bid to boost his immune system, the couple gave the boy — who was lethargic and becoming stiff — various home remedies, such as water with maple syrup, juice with frozen berries and finally a mixture of apple cider vinegar, horse radish root, hot peppers, mashed onion, garlic and ginger root as his condition deteriorated.

This is why promoting "natural" remedies is misguided and dangerous. They tried to treat him themselves for several weeks but they didn't even know what was wrong with him, much less what was needed to actually fix the problem.
 
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Creative, colds are not bacterial, they are viral. And you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? They call it medicine. Until I see clinical trials, I am not believing it. Anecdotes are not evidence.
 
Creative, colds are not bacterial, they are viral. And you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? They call it medicine. Until I see clinical trials, I am not believing it. Anecdotes are not evidence.
Anecdotes are sufficient for those who have benefited and healed from their conditions. I could catalogue the many ways I have successfully treated myself but I can tell I am not talking to open minded people.

Yes you are right about the colds which is not to say you are right about anything else in your post.

Alternative just means an alternative to orthodox medicine. Do you know about complimentary therapies I wonder? They are used alongside orthodox medicine i.e. prescribed by doctors here in UK.
 
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I never said that. You really must stop putting words in my mouth.

YOU said herbalism was NEVER MEANT to replace surgery. That story in the article shows that you are wrong - people in the past did try to treat all kinds of things with herbs, with blood-letting, with lots of unproven "therapies."

Yes I was answering what your original quote was (which I assume you agree with) notably
Say you got appendicitis a thousand years ago. Odds were that you would writhe in pain for a day or two, your appendix would have ruptured and your doctors would have given you a battery of herbs (and maybe opium because obviously). All natural treatment to an all natural problem would have left you dead. Naturally.

As mentioned, the option of having an operation was not available back then so it is an unfair and biaised/twisted argument! Like I have said (several times now), herbalism can be used beneficially to take on the run up to an operation and to help with recovery after it.

So you bring up an example of where natural remedies don't work...well done! Ha! I could
easily catalogue the disasters that ensue from orthodox medicine (I gave you one tragic
example already) so where are we with this? Your cause does not emerge shining does it?


 
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