Eating Etiquette

[XeniA]

I would argue that part of the "sense stimulation that comes from the dining experience" are the above things you look to eliminate. When I go out for lobster I am sorely disappointed if it is served to me and the shell has been cracked or removed or the tail split in half. That denies me a part of my enjoyment of the overall meal. We go to Maine summer and will only go to restaurants that serve the lobster whole. Any restaurant that opens my bug for me is instantly scratched off the list of places we will return to.

No chicken on the bone? I could not imagine fried chicken any other way.

What about artichokes? They take a lot of work (processing) for very little meat, but what a joy they are.

The list can go on and on.

I'm ending up agreeing with some very divergent opinions! Most of all I agree with GB above, and yet Nicholas' point that food served at a table --particularly a formal table -- should be ready for the guest to eat without having to "process" makes equal sense. So I guess it's Andy's call that it's a matter of common sense and "situational" which ties it all up.

I goofed on this just two nights ago, serving glazed chicken wings and whole, unpeeled prawns to my guests at a very formal dinner. I wasn't oblivious to the problems that would ensue, but, still, I ended up feeling that I'd handled it poorly. I considered finger bowls but thought they'd be seen as pretentious ... then I considered nice moist lemon-ed towels but didn't have any such thing to whip into service ... then I considered supplementing the nice napkins with something paper, but my love of formality and beauty won. And so I did nothing and my guests had very sticky hands which DID make them a bit uncomfortable (emphasis on the "bit" -- Greeks aren't all that formal at the table by nature). Thank heavens discreetly-licked fingers don't offend me in the slightest, in fact, it strikes me as a compliment (I'd better not mention the couple of people -- well-bred both -- who lick their plates when inspired ...)

However, back to GB's comments: there is NOTHING in my world to compare with a Greek Easter lamb, on the spit, whole, over charcoal. And as it quietly twirls and roasts and spits and drips and sends the most incredible smells into the air, if you're a friend of the chef, you'll get a wee bit cut off with his knife -- juice from a lemon just cut in half squeezed over it, the excess dripping merrily onto the grass -- and slipped to you to eat right then and there. On the spot. Standing up. Feeling the heat of the charcoal on your knees.

Then again, there are also clams. Dug in the morning, steamed the same night. Served over newspaper, dunking them in butter with your bare hands.

As for kebabs? Souvlaki in this country comes two ways -- pulled off the skewer and tucked into a pita, or on the skewer with salt, oregano, and lemon, served just into one's hand or into a bag, accompanied with a couple of pieces of bread. It's eaten right off the skewer, in the street as you walk along, just leaning a bit to protect your clothes should a piece slip out of control. If eating it that way is rude ... may I always be so rude!

 

[GB]

So I guess it's Andy's call that it's a matter of common sense and "situational" which ties it all up.

I couldn't agree more. Andy took one short sentence to say it so very well!

 

[CharlieD]

... Imagine what a dull world this would be if we all looked and dressed exactly the same? ...

We could have whole Huge another separate debate about this. i for one like my body the way G-d gave it to me. Of, course something could be smaller and something else could be even biger, but I am very happy anyway.

 

[CharlieD]

...

a gavone ...

Pardone my English, but what does it mean?

 

[buckytom]

charlie, a gavone is italian american slang for an oafish glutton. a person who eats a lot, often like a slob.

it is based on the italian word cafone, which means a boorish person.

 

[CharlieD]

Thank you.

 

[ironchef]

LOL I think the moral of this thread is, no matter how "soigne" you think you are, there will ALWAYS be someone laughing at you.

 

[kadesma]

I was taught as a child that to openly laugh or point at someone who made a mistake be it in manners, speaking or how one was dressed, made you more in the wrong than they were...Never judge, you might end up on the receiving end of a judgement...
kadesma

 

[StirBlue]

This is something that carries over into the way I choose to cook and present food. I like the food I serve to people to be ready for eating with either a fork, spoon, or chopsticks. I don't serve bones to people I'm feeding, or give them something that requires "processing" (like a whole steamed lobster). I also try to present the food so that the person doesn't have to pick up their knife. When I eat, I'm relaxed and observant, and don't want to do anything but receive every sense stimulation that comes from the dining experience. It's one thing that I appreciate about many Eastern cuisines that so many Western cuisines disregard (hemispheres, not US coasts).

The exception is hot roasted peanuts from the oven. Nothing like sitting back around a little TV outside with iced beers and roasted peanuts on a cool afternoon watching the Red Sox.

This is a very good thought. My kids have taught me that they want their food to be served at a temperature so it can be eaten when served. They hate boiling steaming soups and stews and "when it's cold; it's old!" (cold fries, cold bread).

Don't you just hate to try and unwrap one of those little chocolate balls making you feel as though you're scratching off the foil. When we get those in a little gift basket, we throw them away. Life is too short to try and get the chocolate out from under your fingernails!

 

[skilletlicker]

LOL I think the moral of this thread is, no matter how "soigne" you think you are, there will ALWAYS be someone laughing at you.

I agree but would add a corollary.
The more "soigne" you think you are, the louder the laughter.

 

[TATTRAT]

charlie, a gavone is italian american slang for an oafish glutton. a person who eats a lot, often like a slob.

it is based on the italian word cafone, which means a boorish person.

and from the meaning of life, Mr. Creosote :"Don't be skimpy on the pate!"


I agree with 99.9% of this thread. it is a shame that what was once Expected, AND respected is lost to all but those that make a conscience effort to keep the finer and proper things living on. My mom would be proud of the outlook of this thread.

 

[miniman]

It surely is all down to a combination of your culture, nationally speaking and regionally speaking, and the way you are brought up, relating to the old fashioned word -class.

I was brought up in Africa and, imo, was taught good manners. However we were also brough up with braais (African barbeques), were you would use your fingers to eat most of th meat ans a fork for salad stuff. I love things like kebabs, chicken wings and other boney things and have no problem using my fingers to eat these sort of things. My wife was brought up in England and has much more formal manners, incuding not using her fingers and more prepared items and she does not like eating food with bones in.

I agree with most of the points mentioned in this thred, but would like to stress it is important to live your life to your own standards and to bring up your children to the best you know. It is wrong to take offence at other peoples manners, and much better toaccept them as they are and I would be disgusted at someone in my household or table s******ing or laughing at another person who may not know any different. My least favourite expression is "You are embarrassing me", if you are determined to correct someone to your own way of thinking, it should be done personnally and quietly direct to the person where they cannot get embarrassed.

 

[VeraBlue]

I agree but would add a corollary.
The more "soigne" you think you are, the louder the laughter.

I disagree. Your corollary suggests that everyone is laughing at people who present themselves well mannered.

 

[XeniA]

Ah! But there are manners, and there are manners.

There are manners which exist for the sole purpose of making others comfortable. And then there are manners which exist for the sole purpose of drawing a line between the supposedly well-bred and the ill-bred, i.e. those in the know and those pathetically lacking. Obviously, the second type of manners is exactly the opposite of the first, and yet they're both called "manners."

Dear Miss Manners, thankfully always grounded in reality, is painfully aware of the second type of manners and doesn't just try to pretend its power away:

"as if etiquette weren't magnificently capable of being used to make others feel uncomfortable!"

 

[Snoop Puss]

Not sure about that VeraBlue. Skilletlicker says "the more soigné you think you are", not simply "the more soigné you are". Think Victoria Beckham. Doubtless she thinks she's very soignée, whereas to many of us she just comes across as affected.

 

[Andy M.]

Ah! But there are manners, and there are manners.

There are manners which exist for the sole purpose of making others comfortable. And then there are manners which exist for the sole purpose of drawing a line between the supposedly well-bred and the ill-bred, i.e. those in the know and those pathetically lacking. Obviously, the second type of manners is exactly the opposite of the first, and yet they're both called "manners."

Dear Miss Manners, thankfully always grounded in reality, is painfully aware of the second type of manners and doesn't just try to pretend its power away:

"as if etiquette weren't magnificently capable of being used to make others feel uncomfortable!"

I disagree with this statement. Folks who practice 'good' manners don't do it to make others uncomfortable. They do it because it's what they learned growing up.

It would be just as absurd to say that people who have 'poor' table manners do it for the sole purpose of irritating those who do not.

Good table manners are not restricted to people of a particular racial, economic, social or geographic category. Everyone can practice it.

 

[Alix]

I haven't chimed in before now, but have enjoyed reading this thread very much.

In our house, correct table manners were taught and we were expected to use them. There were six of us kids and my Dad was VERY particular about how we behaved at the table; right down to using left hand fork, right hand knife and holding them correctly, not in a fist. It made us aware of how many people do NOT have any manners at the table at all. Where I work, I deal with teens and we eat with them every day and one of the things we teach them is table manners. The simple things, like, no talking with your mouth full, don't shovel your food, use your napkin, use your utensils and not your hands...that sort of thing.

We don't go into the specifics of several forks, or anything like that, but the basics are definitely important. It seems to me that these simple things are not being taught to many kids and it is a shame indeed. They may never go to an upscale restaurant for fear of embarrassment, or they may go and behave like complete heathens and have other patrons gagging on THEIR food.

Skilletlicker, I think you are talking about those "affected" souls who think they are so above the rest of us are you not? Just trying to clarify.

I don't serve fancy meals requiring a formal place setting, but I feel confident that if my children go to a meal where a formal setting is in front of them they will handle themselves well. They are logical thinkers (which is all you need to be really) and are not shy about asking questions in a quiet and polite manner. Those are really the most important requirements of good manners I think.

 

[licia]

Right on!!!!!!!

 

[Nicholas Mosher]

I think people are talking about various degrees of manners. I'm sure a fresh-graduate from charm-school would make almost all of us look like troglodytes even at a bar.

If a person is picking up ropes of spaghetti with their hands in a nice restaurant, or tossing meatballs in the air and catching them in their mouth... I see a problem. If they use the same fork for salad & dinner, or don't hold the fork the same as someone else I think thats a bit overboard. The same with some things like "No Elbows on the Table!" or "Don't touch your food with your hands!". If I'm eating pasta primavera and have a pea rolling around on my plate that just won't get onto the fork - I might use my finger (SHOCK!) - especially if my knife has something on it from a previous course that might clash with the delicate primavera sauce. If someone is put-off by this to the point that they can no longer eat their food, I think they should either mind their own business or climb down off their cross...

When eating with others you are sharing a common space. If people are being obnoxious to you then you have every right to complain. But if you are peering around analyzing the posture of someone and whether or not they are gribbing their wine glass by the stem - thats just plain nosy (in my humble opinion anyhoo).

 

[BreezyCooking]

Very VERY well said Nicholas. I agree with you completely.