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Old 01-02-2010, 09:06 PM   #21
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Stick to the basics.

I really love your sense of adventure and trying something new, but I am not sure if you are ever going to improve upon time tested methods. When it comes to bread I never mess with the base. but I try all differant things
as far as fillings and adding differant herbs or spices such as garlic bread.If you really have to experiment you should just practice on the inlaws, make the good ones for you.

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Old 01-03-2010, 07:03 AM   #22
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it looks like you're on the right track now.

temperature-wise, there's a lot of leeway, as long as you don't kill the yeast with too hot water. and if you're not living in an igloo, the temperature in your kitchen should be fine. a warmed oven will be even faster.

if you're letting your first rise get to 3 or even more times the volume, that's definitely way overdoing it. let the yeast put its energy into the second rise. double is more than plenty, especially for cinnamon rolls where you can actually get by with letting the dough rest for 15 or 20 minutes before forming the rolls. dinner rolls are also fine with a single rise.

send me a batch when you get them perfected

let me make sure that wine's ok before i use it.
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Old 01-03-2010, 07:13 AM   #23
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A long cool rise seems to produce a flavor and texture that we prefer.
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:32 AM   #24
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Here's my take in my many years of experience with baking bread and other yeast-rising item.
Yeast 'grows' on it's ability to produce gas while consuming flour and preferably some sugar or honey.
You don't have enough yeast for that much flour - I'd double it.
Your liquids aren't hot enough 120-130 degrees is not to hot.
Heat any of your ingredients that will melt with your water/milk including sugar, salt butter/oil etc. cool to the above temperatures.
In your mixing bowl with the paddle attachment add 2 cups of the dry flour and the yeast. Once that liquid hits the bowl, it will have already dropped 10 degrees. Mix at medium speed to blend for a minute. 2 minutes on high speed.
Replace the paddle attachment with the dough hook and continue to add the rest of your flour in increments. If the dough starts to climb the hook, stop the mixer and scrape it down. Continue to add more flour.
I have never had the second rise happen in a cold garage or cold fridge so I can't comment on that technique. The first rise should happen rather quickly when covered loosely with saran wrap over the bowl. Ditto when punched down and rolls formed for the second rise. This may happen slowly in a cold environment. I rise mine on top of the oven while it's pre-heating in preperation for baking.
Good for you that you dumped the creaming thing. I've never heard of this with a bread recipe.
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:04 AM   #25
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I too feel the amount of yeast is inadequate for the task at hand. I use 2 teaspoons of dry yeast for three cups of dry ingredients, this gives a good rise in a reasonable length of time. Overworking the dough after the 2nd rise can also creat the situation you are having. Be as gentle as possible with it as you form your buns so as to not cause collapse of the gas cells.
Good luck! Good Eating
I'd Rather Cook Than Eat!
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:58 AM   #26
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I think I got what I needed out of this thread but will keep monitoring.

As I mentioned in the original post I'm a novice and pretty much limit my baking to a lot of cinnamon rolls annually (although I did try a pita recipe a week or so back). Each year there's an opportunity to learn a little bit more and improve the recipe.

Here's what I've learned from all of you.

I'm OK with the temp I'm using to proof the yeast. I'm going to increase the yeast some next year but before I do the first thing is to shorten the first rise. In an hour I will have 3-4 times the volume. Cutting that rise in half (e.g. to double the volume) seems to, as was posted, save the yeast for the second rise of the rolls in the pan.

I've become somewhat interested in baker percentages as a simple way to compare different dough recipes. I'll go back over the recipe and some comparisons I've done to give a better post back on the recommendation to raise the yeast ratio.

I'm going to post a separate thread to see what people have experienced with the second rise being done warm or colder (and overnight). My assumption is that, unless you kill the yeast, everything just slows down. I noticed the post mentioning that it might affect flavor. The original recipe called for the overnight technique but that may have been more for convenience than for recipe quality.

This year because of the cold spell I've learned to be careful about overnight temps. That may have been the big problem (i.e. why the rise was so disappointing).

You folk are great! I learn so much here.


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