"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > Recipes & Ingredients > Desserts, Sweets & Cookies & Candy > Pies & Pastries
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-26-2009, 09:09 AM   #1
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 32
Not enough rise in cinnamon rolls

Novice baker. For some years now I've been baking my mother's cinnamon roll recipe as gifts for family. I'll crank out 12-14 dozen 2 dozen at a time.

To learn, I take the opportunity to work on the recipe and technique each year and this year was no exception. This year's batches didn't get the rise I was looking for. I'd like to get some help understand this a bit more.

This is my attempt at converting the recipe to baker's measures (although it's still in cups).

Dry 9.77 C (68%), Wet 3.68 C (26%), Yeast .19 C (1%), and Fat .75 C (5%). The dry is flour, sugar, and salt. The wet is milk, water and eggs. The yeast is regular rise. The fat is oil (although I changed after the first batch or two to butter).

My first question is whether the ratio looks right for getting somewhat airy cinnamon rolls?

I made two changes this year after the first batch or two. I use two rises: the first for an hour right after the dough is kneaded and the second is after the rolls are formed in the pan. I usually let the second rise happen in a refrigerator in the garage over night but I found the refrig was very cold (an old refer and a very cold spell of weather). I decided to experiment by having the second rise done in a slightly warmed oven (just like the first rise).

Is there a difference in how the rise will be if you overnight in a cool place vs. a 1 hour rise in a warm one?

The other thing I changed (in an attempt to get a better rise) was to replace the oil with the same amount of butter. I creamed the butter and sugar together before adding the other ingredients. Will there be much of a difference in rise when using oil vs. butter as the fat?

I appreciate any insights. Remember, I'm as interested in understanding baking as I am in improving the cinnamon rolls.

Thanks

Liv

__________________

__________________
Livingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2009, 09:41 AM   #2
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 32
BTW, I realized after posting that the measures are not in baker's percentages (the flour isn't 100%). I've got some work yet to do to make the conversion accurate.

Liv
__________________

__________________
Livingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2009, 09:45 AM   #3
Head Chef
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,300
I thought rise came from the sugar and flour, not the oil/butter. I only add butter after the flour/water/sugar has been mixed and I can see that the yeast has started to "do its thing." I've never heard of creaming the butter and sugar together first, for bread making.
__________________

Wyogal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 11:06 AM   #4
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 32
Thanks for the post, and, as you can tell, I'm pretty much a novice looking to learn. I'm just trying different techniques/ratios with one recipe.

So, did I just learn that creaming (which appears to be called for when making some cakes or cookies) is specifically for those outcomes? What I read was that the creaming created spaces for the leavening to work. Is it possible that the technique isn't recommended for breads (and cinnamon rolls) because yeast is used instead of soda or powder? In reading a bit more on creaming it also says to not let the creamed mixture warm up (which, for the CRs, will happen during the rise). I guess I've just learned that the technique will produce no effect for the CRs.

The original recipe (which was shown to make CRs and for things like hamburger buns) called for veg oil but there was a note that a substitute of half shortening and half butter could be used). I just added the creaming idea.

Will there be a difference in the rise between using oil vs. shortening/butter?

Liv
__________________
Livingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 11:33 AM   #5
Head Chef
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,300
As I said, yeast does not rely on oil/butter for rising. You are mixing two different techniques, one for cakes, one for breads. Why not just stick to a bread technique? I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by using a cake technique for bread. They are different, for different reasons.
This is what I do:
Some flour, some sugar, some warm water and yeast in the bowl. When that starts to bubble and "work," I add warm milk (or just more water), a little bit of butter melted in the milk, and a little salt. Mix with a whisk, adding flour. Add more flour until kneading consistency, then knead it. I can tell by the feel when I have enough flour. It's smooth, elastic, and not sticky. Let it rise in an oiled bowl (the one I mixed it in, large, cleaned), covered with plastic wrap. I leave it on a warm counter, until doubled in bulk, maybe a couple of hours. Then I punch it down, roll it out, put the cinnamon, brown sugar, pats of butter on it, roll it up, cut it and place it into a prepared pan (brown sugar, cinnamon, butter, maybe some cream if I got it). Let it rise in a warm place for a bit, maybe 30 minutes, bake.
__________________

Wyogal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 12:28 PM   #6
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 32
Thanks Kathy,

The reason Iím mixing bread and cake techniques is, as I said in the OP, because I'm a novice and am here to learn. I get that creaming butter/sugar isnít a bread technique. Iíll not make that mistake again.

Thanks for the brief description of your technique. I tend to rely more on a mixer for the bulk of the kneading and I proof the yeast in water before adding it, and warmed milk, to the oil, sugar, eggs, salt, and flavoring (vanilla).

What happened with this yearís batches of CR was poor rise and Iím here to understand better why.

I'll admit I have a slightly scientific theme for my questions. My "feel" for the rolls is watching the way the dough reacts to the dough hook and during a brief knead I do by hand when I take it out of the mixer. The recipe I use calls for a soft and slightly sticky dough.

I've been working on understanding some ratios (e.g. wet/dry) in various doughs and batters. It's also given me an opportunity to play with baker's percentages. For this yearís CRs (ingredient, volume, weight, bakerís %:

Flour 9C (40.5oz) 100%
Sugar 3/4 C (6oz) 14.8%
Fat: 3 eggs and 3/4 C oil (10.9oz) 26.9%
Yeast 3 T (0.9oz) 2.2%
Salt 1 T (0.67oz) 1.7%
Wet: 2 1/4 C milk, 3/4 C water, 1 T vanilla (24.5oz) 60.5%

Do you see anything in the formula that could be affecting the rise problem?

Thanks

Liv
__________________
Livingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 12:30 PM   #7
Head Chef
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,300
No, it's not the ingredients (they look fine), it's the method.
__________________

Wyogal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 12:38 PM   #8
Head Chef
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,984
Yeast, sugar (or honey or other sugar), and warm liquid are normally required for the yeast to do its thing. I don't mess around with the kneading or anything as my CR recipe calls for all the mixing to be done in a bread machine. If your recipe is better than this, I must have it!

Clone of a Cinnabon - All Recipes
__________________
vagriller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 01:50 PM   #9
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 32
I haven't bitten the bullet yet on a bread machine but once I get this recipe to work consistently I'll post it.

So, if not ingredients, lets shift to method.

I scald the milk and let it cool to 110-120. In the mean time I proof the yeast in water with a pinch of sugar (4 min). I also start the mix of oil, sugar, salt, and vanilla in a mixer.

When the yeast has proven and the milk cooled I add them both to the other liquids and mix briefly.

I start the mixer on low and then start to add flour. The first 4 cups are added fairly quickly. I replace the mix paddle with the dough hook and set to low again. I then start adding more flour a cup at a time. At about 8 cups I let it knead for 12 minutes adding a small amount of flour if it isn't coming away from the bowl sides.

Here's where things can be inconsistent. If I have too much flour the dough will climb up the dough hook and I'm not sure if it's doing much kneading. (I'd heard to turn the speed up and let it slap against the side of the bowl but I haven't tried that yet.) If I have too little flour the dough will stick to the sides but will be getting a good knead action from the dough hook.

When done I transfer the dough to a floured board and knead briefly by hand to get to the consistency I want.

The dough is put into an oiled bowl, covered, and let to rise for an hour in an oven heated for 1 minute. I then make the rolls and put them into two pans (3x4) of 12 each. I cover with foil and used to put them overnight into the refrigerator. Since I got some bad rise (possibly because the refrig is in the garage and it was a very cold spell), I decided to change method to let the rolls rise again for an hour in an oven heated for 1 minute.

At this point the rolls have risen some but not as much as I'd like.

Liv
__________________
Livingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 01:53 PM   #10
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 32
One other thing I forgot to mention is pan size. A few years ago I invested in some good quality 9 x 13 x 2 1/4 baking pans. I'm putting 12 rolls in each. One thing I've been thinking about is to increase the total amount of dough and cut the rolls thicker.

Liv
__________________

__________________
Livingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
None

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.