Pie Crusts

[Andy M.]

I really don't like making pie crusts. Probably because it's a struggle to get them to come out right. But the are really better than the pre-made stuff so it's worth the effort.

I use an Alton Brown recipe. Here are the ingredients for one crust.

One Crust:
3 Oz Butter, chilled
1 Oz Shortening, chilled
6 Oz AP Flour, plus extra for dusting
½ tsp Table Salt
¼ C Ice Water

The preparation is fairly standard in a food processor.

For as long as I can remember, recipes have a caution to use the smallest amount of water that results in the dough sticking together when compressed. I do this and wrap and chill a disk of dough (or two). When I roll it out, the edges split to weird shapes like the profile of a mountain range. I have to do a lot of patching/mending to get a decent edge. I know if I buy prepared pie crusts, this doesn't happen.

What do I do? Add more water? change the amounts or ingredients?

Also, When making two crusts, do you separate the dough into two equal parts or allocate more than half to the top crust for something like an apple pie that can be fairly tall?

I made an apple pie for Thanksgiving and it was really good but I did have the issue rolling out the dough. I used a deep dish dark glass pie plate and baked it at the bottom of the oven so the bottom crust would cook.

 

[Aunt Bea]

I learned to make pie crust from "The Queen of Country Music", Miss Loretta Lynn!

2 cups AP flour
1 Cup Crisco
1 t salt
1/4 cup ice water

Mix flour and salt, cut in shortening with a pastry blender, add ice water and pull together into a ball, divide in half.

I use a little more fat than most recipes and I don't chill the dough so I get a softer dough to work with. This makes enough for a generous 2 crust pie. I divide the dough equally when making a two crust pie. I use deep dish Pyrex pie plates. I use a pastry cloth on the board and a stocking on the rolling pin. A couple of people noted recently that they sometimes have trouble making a crust and I have had that happen also. I have been known to throw out the first batch and start over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiVuvzWThfU

Bolas offered up a couple of good recipes for pie crust.

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f40/mince-pies-recipe-needed-76684.html#post1083518

http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f49/pork-pie-recipe-anyone-73462-2.html#post1021897

 

[bethzaring]

ah...pie crusts.


When I took home-ec in junior high school, the teacher called my Mother and told her she had never seen such a student that was a natural pie baker like I was.


But for 30 years or so, I boycotted making pie crusts because of the fat content and not needing the calories and raising the cholesterol levels in my blood. I also used to insist on using whole wheat flour and the crusts were extremely fragile and patched together like a quilt.


I am a recent convert to store bought pie crusts; they are delicious. I have tried several brands and they are all good. I have one sitting in the frig right now. On Sunday I am having one of DH's eleven brothers and his family over for dinner and I am making a cherry pie.


I make tortillas twice a week and every time I make them I think of pie crusts. With almost identical ingredients, the tortillas come out perfectly round, with no patching, and are very sturdy. I always wonder why pie crusts can't hold together like these?


Anyway, I will probably never make a pie crust again.

 

[CharlieD]

The best store bought pie I ever had was and is apple pie from Sam's club. It is simply unbelievable.

But I have been wanting to start making my own pie crusts for a while.

 

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

I really don't like making pie crusts. Probably because it's a struggle to get them to come out right. But the are really better than the pre-made stuff so it's worth the effort.

I use an Alton Brown recipe. Here are the ingredients for one crust.

One Crust:
3 Oz Butter, chilled
1 Oz Shortening, chilled
6 Oz AP Flour, plus extra for dusting
½ tsp Table Salt
¼ C Ice Water

The preparation is fairly standard in a food processor.

For as long as I can remember, recipes have a caution to use the smallest amount of water that results in the dough sticking together when compressed. I do this and wrap and chill a disk of dough (or two). When I roll it out, the edges split to weird shapes like the profile of a mountain range. I have to do a lot of patching/mending to get a decent edge. I know if I buy prepared pie crusts, this doesn't happen.

What do I do? Add more water? change the amounts or ingredients?

Also, When making two crusts, do you separate the dough into two equal parts or allocate more than half to the top crust for something like an apple pie that can be fairly tall?

I made an apple pie for Thanksgiving and it was really good but I did have the issue rolling out the dough. I used a deep dish dark glass pie plate and baked it at the bottom of the oven so the bottom crust would cook.

My pie crust recipe for deep dish 9 inch pies:

Room temperature must be 75 degrees F or below to make a great crust without having to chill everything.

3 cups ap flour
1 1/2 tsp. salt
Enough lard so that when cut in makes pea-gravel textured dough
about 3 tbs. ice water.

Combine the flour and salt. Cut in the lard (or shortening), adding about 1/8th cup at a time, until you have pea-gravel consistancy, with no loose flour hanging about. Splash the ice water all over the dough. Fold the water in and see if the dough forms a loose ball. If not, add a little more ice water. Remember, gluten isn't formed until water is added. You can work your dough all day before adding the water. But once the water is added, work the dough as little as possible.

There needs to be just enough water to get the dough to combine loosely into a ball. After that, liberally flour the work surface. Take 1/2 of the dough and make into a ball. Don't handle a lot or you will develop the gluten and make the crust tough. With your hands, press the dough-ball into a rough disk. Place onto the work surface and dust the top with more flour. Roll in every direction, always starting from the center and rolling outward. Make the dough large enough so that when you place your inverted pie-pan on top, it spreads at least 3 inches from the rim.

The uneven edge is what causes the dough to break when you are transfering it from the table to the pan. Use a paring knive to cut off the rough edges and make a smooth edge all the way around the pie pan, again, exceding the diameter of the pan by 6 inches (3 inches between the pan edge and the dough edge).

Now, slide a icing spatula between the pie and the work surface to insure it isn't stuck to the table. Fold the dough in half, and in half again to make a triangle. Lift the crust and place the point of the triangle in the pan center, then unfold the crust. Work it to the bottom edges. You now have an overhang of crust that is easy to work with. Carefully fold back part of the overhang and tuck it between the main crust sides and the pan. If you have a single crust pie, pinch and shape the crust edge into a fluted pie crust edge. If making a double crust pie, roll the 2nd dough-ball out as you did the first. Make it the same size, again cutting the edge to make it smooth. Slide the spatula under the crust, fold it, place it on top of the filled pie crust. Tuck the overlapping dough between the lower crust and the pie pan. Flute the edge, make vent holes, brush with egg wash, and bake until golden brown.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North

 

[Andy M.]

...The uneven edge is what causes the dough to break when you are transfering it from the table to the pan. Use a paring knive to cut off the rough edges and make a smooth edge all the way around the pie pan, again, exceding the diameter of the pan by 6 inches (3 inches between the pan edge and the dough edge)...

If I add a little more water, will the edges stay together better? How come store bought crusts don't have this problem??

I find it hard to imagine you can roll that much dough out to a big enough circle to trim off the uneven edges and still have enough to make a 15" circle.

 

[tinlizzie]

Just for the sake of offering alternatives, here's another:

Murlene's Pie Crust

Mix 3 cups all purpose flour, 1 cup Crisco, 1 tsp salt until crumbly. In a cup, beat one egg, 1 Tbsp apple cider vinegar and 5 Tbsps cold water. Pour over flour mixture and stir. Roll into pie crusts. Cover and refrigerate unused dough. Bake at 425 degrees 12-15 minutes.

I don't keep Crisco on hand as I used to, and tried this next one because I did have a bottle of canola oil.

Vegetable Oil Pastry

1-1/3 c all purpose flour
1/4 tsp salt
1 egg white, slightly beaten
1/3 c vegetable oil
1 tbsp cold water

Combine flour and salt; add egg white, oil and water. Stir with a fork until dry ingredients are moistened. Shape into a ball; place between two sheets of wax paper. Roll out to a 12" circle. Place in a 9" pie plate; flute edges. Prick bottom and sides of pastry with a fork. Bake at 450 degrees for 12 minutes. Yield: 1 pastry shell.


With no excuse except laziness, I have bought pie shells from the grocery store my last two pies. They tend to be a bit sweet, I think, but that could just be the brand I bought.

 

[Aunt Bea]

Just for the sake of offering alternatives, here's another:

Murlene's Pie Crust

Mix 3 cups all purpose flour, 1 cup Crisco, 1 tsp salt until crumbly. In a cup, beat one egg, 1 Tbsp apple cider vinegar and 5 Tbsps cold water. Pour over flour mixture and stir. Roll into pie crusts. Cover and refrigerate unused dough. Bake at 425 degrees 12-15 minutes.

I don't keep Crisco on hand as I used to, and tried this next one because I did have a bottle of canola oil.

Vegetable Oil Pastry

1-1/3 c all purpose flour
1/4 tsp salt
1 egg white, slightly beaten
1/3 c vegetable oil
1 tbsp cold water

Combine flour and salt; add egg white, oil and water. Stir with a fork until dry ingredients are moistened. Shape into a ball; place between two sheets of wax paper. Roll out to a 12" circle. Place in a 9" pie plate; flute edges. Prick bottom and sides of pastry with a fork. Bake at 450 degrees for 12 minutes. Yield: 1 pastry shell.


With no excuse except laziness, I have bought pie shells from the grocery store my last two pies. They tend to be a bit sweet, I think, but that could just be the brand I bought.

Murlene's pie crust sounds like an old time recipe. The vinegar or lemon juice makes a nice tender crust and the egg makes the dough more pliable, easier to handle. I sure do miss pie!

 

[Addie]

I hate the Prepared Pie Crust that the Dough Boy makes. It has no taste at all. Not even salt. And I am now at the age to stand up and fuss with the rolling and mixing it up is more than I can do. But my supermarket has one made by a small company right here in Boston. I don't know whose recipe they use, but it has a lot of flavor. And it is really easy to work with. So I will stick with that. And as an added benefit, it costs a lot less.

 

[CWS4322]

I learned to make pie crust when I was 8 years' old and have been making this ever since.


1-1/2 cup flour
1/4 c lard
1/4 c Crisco
1 tsp salt
4-5 T ice water
1 T vinegar (white vinegar, ice cold)
1 T vodka (ice cold)


Crumble the shortening, salt, flour together with a pastry cutter (or 2 knives or a fork) until the mixture resembles sand. Or do it with your fingers--I don't get why pie crust is so hard to make. Add 1 T ice water, the vinegar, the vodka, determine if you need to add more liquid. It has to have a certain "feel" and I guess, since my grandma taught me to make this when I was so young, just like she taught me how to "feel" bread dough and lefse, I can't explain how it is when it is right. It just feels right.

My grandma never chilled the pie dough. We would roll it out once on a floured board with a rolling pin covered with a floured sock, and then fold it all back up, and roll it again on a floured board. It always worked, was always tender and flakey. We would take the extra pie crust and make crisps--roll it out, sprinkle it with cinnamon and sugar, bake it on a cookie sheet, prick it with a fork, bake for about 12 minutes, and eat that.

 

[bakechef]

If I add a little more water, will the edges stay together better? How come store bought crusts don't have this problem??

I find it hard to imagine you can roll that much dough out to a big enough circle to trim off the uneven edges and still have enough to make a 15" circle.

More water will help make it roll out better. I often make the dough to the point where it clumps when squeezed like all the recipes tell you to. Then I add enough vodka to make a nice soft dough. I learned this trick from America's test kitchen.

 

[CWS4322]

And this is where baker's percentages would help. Just saying.

 

[Andy M.]

And this is where baker's percentages would help. Just saying.

How exactly?

Thanks, bakechef. I'll give it a try next time. I'm sure we have vodka.

 

[CWS4322]

How exactly?

Thanks, bakechef. I'll give it a try next time. I'm sure we have vodka.

There is a difference in the amount of moisture in butter vs. shortening. Also, the technique to combine the flour and fat is usually done by hand. Doing it in a mixer or FB would result in the gluten in the flour being overworked. Next time, try doing it by hand. I've never made pie crust using anything other than a pastry cutter/forks/knives or my hands. I've been making pie crust (successfully) for 47 years. My dad uses the recipe in The Joy of Cooking. I personally prefer my grandma's recipe, but he likes that recipe.

 

[CWS4322]

More water will help make it roll out better. I often make the dough to the point where it clumps when squeezed like all the recipes tell you to. Then I add enough vodka to make a nice soft dough. I learned this trick from America's test kitchen.

I find a bit of white vinegar + a bit of vodka works great. But if you don't have vodka, white vinegar does work. I have also used apple cider vinegar when making apple pies. I don't squeeze the dough--I wish I could describe how I know the dough is right, but it is something I learned from my grandma and have known how to do for so many years, I can't describe it. Maybe I should have a friend's kid come over and see if I can pass that on!

 

[Andy M.]

And this is where baker's percentages would help. Just saying.

How exactly?...

There is a difference in the amount of moisture in butter vs. shortening. Also, the technique to combine the flour and fat is usually done by hand. Doing it in a mixer or FB would result in the gluten in the flour being overworked. Next time, try doing it by hand. I've never made pie crust using anything other than a pastry cutter/forks/knives or my hands. I've been making pie crust (successfully) for 47 years. My dad uses the recipe in The Joy of Cooking. I personally prefer my grandma's recipe, but he likes that recipe.

How does the percentage method help?

 

[CharlieD]

There is a really good book about pro enrage, sort of, it's called Ratio, on Amazon. You can read the sample on line. It kind of explains some of these things.


Sent from my iPad using Discuss Cooking

 

[CWS4322]

From what I've been reading in this wonderful book, Professional Cooking (Wayne Gisslen), for a flaky pie crust, pastry flour is the best choice--the formula (when using pastry flour) is 100% pastry flour, 70% shortening (fat), 30% water, 2% salt. If using AP flour, the percentage of shortening has to be higher--can't find how much higher, but higher. If using butter, the amount of liquid would be reduced slightly. If using all butter instead of shortening, the percentage of fat should be increased by about 1/4. If using shortening and butter, the two should be blended together before adding to the flour. My impression is that there would be more shortening than butter and the butter is for flavor, not to enhance the tenderness of the crust. If I've done the math correctly, the recipe the OP listed has just over 66% shortening (fat). And the amount of liquid is 35% (?).


Ideally, the dough should be around 60F during mixing and rolling. If the shortening is too warm, it blends too quickly with the flour, if it is very cold, it is harder to work. If you use too much liquid, the crust becomes tough because too much gluten development. If too little liquid, the crust falls apart. I am guessing the recipe needs more fat because of the AP flour--which would possibly balance the amount of water or reduce the water slightly.


I think it is time to play with pie crusts using the formula as the base and then figure out the adjustments when using AP or wholewheat flour re: shortening and liquid. Only problem is, then I'd have to make pies, something I don't make often. Or, I could just blind-bake a bunch of crusts for testing purposes...

 

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

I understand the dough. Fat and flour are mixed together to form little granules, each independent from each other. At this stage, water had not yet been introduced, and so no gluten development is possible. Enough salt needs to be added to the flour to give the dough flavor, about a half tsp. per cup of flour. Ice water is added to the dough, and gently folded in to avoid developing the gluten, yet form the moist starch that loosely binds the granules together, without making them homogenous.

The dough is placed onto a floured surface to keep it from sticking to that surface. It's pressed down into a rough disk in preparation for rolling. Again, dust with flour to keep the rolling pin from sticking to the dough.

The rolling pin compresses all of those little granules into flat flakes, all held together by the moist starches. When completely flattened into a uniform, round, sheet of dough, it is transferred to the pie pan.

When the pie is cooked, the fat in the dough oven-fries the flour, and some of the water evaporates out. The crust has enough molecular bonds to loosely hold together, while allowing the crust to come apart in flakes. The gluten wasn't developed and so the crust is tender.

The idea of using vodka is that the alcohol, as a liquid, causes the starches to bind, and helps the dough-ball remain stable, without developing the gluten with water.

I don't have the baker's ratio at my disposal right now, and have never used it, as I have visual and tactile cues to help me know when my dough is right, and ready to be rolled.

Experience has taught me that breakage occurs at ragged dough edges, hence the reason I cut the dough into a smooth edged circle.

It just works.

I tend to over-think a lot of things. But I've found a pie crust recipe and technique that gives me great crusts, and so I don't need to fix what ain't broke, if you know what I mean.

I'm not saying that those who use vinegar, or vodka, or chill there dough, or whatever don't have great crusts. Indeed, I'm the guy who always says to play with recipes, and make them your own. I also believe that there are usually many different ways to get excellent results. But I also believe that all of those ways share some common traits.

If you want to make truly great crusts, take what you like from everything we've all said, those of us who make good crusts, sift the ideas through your brain, and just try those ideas, and see how your crust turns out.

Seeeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North

 

[CharlieD]

pardon my ignorance, but if you use pastry flour, aren't you going to end up with pastry dough?