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Old 04-09-2006, 10:31 PM   #11
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Michael...I found some of that same info when I searched! Thank you for taking the time. In this recipe...it doesn't have to be dry. (Though some I have for "crisps" it is used that way.) So is this what you're thinking? The first recipe is the one I use. The second is the white cake recipe I use. Combining them to replace the "cake mix" in the first I would get the third?
MANDARIN ORANGE CAKE
1 BOX WHITE OR YELLOW CAKE MIX
1 (11 OUNCE) CAN MANDARIN ORANGES
4 EGGS
1/2 CUP VEGETABLE OIL


MY WHITE CAKE MIX RECIPE:
2 CUPS SUGAR
3 CUPS FLOUR
1 CUP BUTTER
4 EGG WHITES
1 TABLESPOON VANILLA
1 TABLESPOON BAKING POWDER
1 CUP MILK


REVISED RECIPE
2 CUPS SUGAR
3 CUPS FLOUR
1 CUP BUTTER
½ CUP VEGETABLE OIL
4 EGG WHITES
4 EGGS
1 TABLESPOON VANILLA
1 TABLESPOON BAKING POWDER
1 (11) OUNCE CAN MANDARIN ORANGES

I think I'm going to try it tomorrow for the fun of it and see. Man....8 eggs!
Hope it's good!
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Old 04-12-2006, 03:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAYLINDA
So is this what you're thinking? The first recipe is the one I use. The second is the white cake recipe I use. Combining them to replace the "cake mix" in the first I would get the third?
At first glance I would have said no ... you would be dumping everything from two different recipes into one batch of dry ingredients (sugar and flour) and be short the dry amount in the "mix" - not to mention that you had left out the milk. Then I broke out the books and did a little more research so I could explain what was wrong with the revised recipe and discovered that it wasn't that far off in some ways! OK - I'm not a big cake baker - but this is science and formulas and I'm good at crunching numbers.

This appears to be a "high-ratio" cake ... probably made using the "two-stage" method - and the basic "formula" follows. NOTE: all are based on ingredient weights and => means equal or just a fraction more.

1. Sugar => Flour
2. Eggs => Fat
3. Liquid (eggs + milk) => Sugar

Looking at your revised recipe (and trying to convert volume to weight) and assuming Large Eggs (1.7 oz):

1) Sugar (14 oz) => Flour (12 - 13.95 oz) - OK
2) Eggs (11.24 oz) => Fat (10.23 oz) - OK
3) Liquid (eggs + milk = 11.24 oz) => Sugar (14 oz) - BUSTED

Shirley Corriher in her book CookWise uses about 1/2 milk and 1/2 egg (see pages 139-141 ... although you probably want to read the entire cake section 135-153). She also explains how to mix butter and oil to calculate the fat.

Taking the formula that Shirley gave (above) I dug out my copy of The Baker's Manual written by Joseph Amendola (it's an old book - published back in 1972) - pastry instructor at the CIA (not really a beginners book - it's like you had to be in class to know what the heck he is talking about and these are just the recipes you didn't get written down). I compared his recipe for a Basic White Cake and it fits with the formula Shirley gave - and fits with the example she used when it comes to using 1/2 milk and 1/2 egg.

Of course ... if a cake with just egg whites comes out too dry, you can drop a white and add 2 yolks ... and make other adjustments to weights (1 white = 1.07 oz and 2 yolks = 1.3 oz).

Hope this helps.
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Old 04-12-2006, 04:23 PM   #13
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Michael, I am always in awe of how far you go to be helpful to everybody on this forum. Karma to you, buddy.
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Old 04-12-2006, 10:06 PM   #14
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Michael...just saw your message. I'm glad I got delayed in making the cake. I will do some more studying. Thank you for your time! I appreciate the time you took to help me!
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Old 04-12-2006, 10:09 PM   #15
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I'm really curious now...because actually...many of these recipes that "start" with a cake mix...don't say what kind. Maybe most people use the kind where you add eggs to the mix. If so....I could probably get by with just using the dry ingredients...as the recipe uses the mix dry. Hmmmmmm.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:49 AM   #16
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Information

What's in a Cake Mix?

http://home.ivillage.com/cooking/tec...,,hbqc,00.html
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:42 PM   #17
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That is a good site Auzzie!!! Thanks! Page 1 is right on ... I guess Anne lost me on page 2 when she said, "You will, of course, want to add more to a cake mix, and that is why my books are so popular!"

KAYLINDA - if you're going to use a prepackaged mix - follow the directions on the mix package. The mix is formulated to work with the additional ingredients called for on the box/package (milk, water, oil, egg).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAYLINDA
... many of these recipes that "start" with a cake mix...don't say what kind.
I'm guessing that by "kind" you mean "brand"? Obviously, if you were making a Mandarin Orange White Cake you probably wouldn't use a chocolate or gingerbread mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAYLINDA
so....I could probably get by with just using the dry ingredients...as the recipe uses the mix dry.
NO! Different brand mixes are formulated differently ... that's why you need to follow the package directions. One mix (say one requiring water only) might contain all of the milk proteins, fats and emulsifiers (soy lecithin is the most common for a dry mix) in dehydrated form and another mix requires the fats (oil) and emulsifiers (egg yolks) to be added. Just taking a bag of cake mix powder and arbitrarily adding ingredients and expecting it to work is like popping the hood on a 1960's era VW beetle and pumping water into the tank on the front end assuming it was the radiator!
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:35 AM   #18
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Check this out:

FOR GREAT CAKES, GET THE RATIOS RIGHT
http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/pages/c00093.asp

Summary [test it on a basic recipe cake - it works]:

Formula for regular butter cake:
- Weight of sugar is equal or less than weight of flour
- Weight of eggs is equal or greater than weight of fat
- Weight of liquids (egg and milk) is equal to weight of flour
Formula for high ratio butter cake:
- Weight of sugar is equal or greater than weight of flour
- Weight of eggs is greater than weight of fat
- Weight of liquid (egg and milk) is equal or greater than weight of sugar
Leavening: (This is a general guideline as the other ingredients used in a recipe also affect the amount of baking powder/baking soda used.)
1 - 1 1/4 teaspoons of baking powder for each cup of flour
or
1/4 teaspoon baking soda for each cup of flour
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:52 PM   #19
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Michael...you said:
KAYLINDA - if you're going to use a prepackaged mix - follow the directions on the mix package. The mix is formulated to work with the additional ingredients called for on the box/package (milk, water, oil, egg).

The recipes I have are using the dry mix only...and then adding the ingredients in the recipe. For Instance:

"CAKE MIX" BUTTERSCOTCH CAKE

MIX TOGETHER:
18.25 OUNCE DRY WHITE CAKE MIX
3.4 OUNCE INSTANT BUTTERSCOTCH PUDDING
4 EGGS
3/4 CUP WATER
3/4 CUP SALAD OIL
1/2 CUP SOUR CREAM

POUR INTO A 9X13X2 PAN
BAKE AT 350 FOR ABOUT 30 MINUTES

I just want to replace the "cake mix" part with flour, sugar, etc.

Thanks for all your help!
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Old 04-17-2006, 12:34 AM   #20
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Sorry I didn't back to you faster Kaylinda - it was Easter weekend plus I needed a little time to do a bit more research. One interesting fact that I did glean from Sarah Phillips at Baking911 is that all packaged cake mixes are high-ratio - so the flour to sugar weight ratios are going to be about equal. Taking that information and digging back through The Baker's Manual again ... and remembering some things Shirley Corriher had said in CookWise about the differences in baking (measurements and ingredients) between home cooks and professionals ... I began to piece together a plan.

Assumption #1: If the recipe calls for a white cake mix as the foundation of the recipe but doesn't specify a brand AND the ingredients are not given in weights ... then probably the flour, sugar, leavening and salt are the only significate ingredients - and the other ingredients in the mix have plenty of wiggle room.

Assumption #2: The weight of sugar and flour will be about equal, and the amount of leavener and salt will be proportional to the amounts found in a "scratch" cake.

Assumption #3: Converting from lb/oz weights to common teaspoon/cup volume type measurements will get us close to the same results.

RECIPE #1: to approximate a 18.25 oz White Cake Mix by weight (minus everything but flour, suar, baking powder and salt)

8.875 oz Bleached Cake Flour
8.875 oz Sugar
0.334 oz Double Acting Baking Powder
0.127 oz Salt

Fact: In baking, the type of flour you use and how you measure it affacts the outcome. Good cookbooks, that include baking recipes with volume measurements, will tell you what flour they used and how they measure the flour in their recipes. There are basically 4 ways to measure flour by volume - and the differences in weight (based on cake flour) per cup:

1 - SIFTED: You sift the flour directly into the measuring cup - about 3.5 oz
2 - SIFT & SCOOP: Sift the flour once into a bowl and then scoop it out with the measuring cup - about 3.7-3.8 oz
3 - SPOON & SPRINKLE: You use a spoon to dip the flour out of the bag and sprinkle it into the measuring cup - about 4 oz.
4 - DIP & SCRAPE: You dip the measuring cup into the bag of flour and scrape it off against the side/top flap of the bag to level it - about 4.6 oz.

NOTE: In 1-3 above, the measuring cup is never tapped or shaken to level the flour - fill to overflowing and use a straight-edge to scrape off the excess.

RECIPE #2: using the Spoon & Spinkle method from above for flour and sugar

2 1/4 Cups Bleached Cake Flour
1 1/4 - 1 1/3 Cups Granulated Sugar
2 Teaspoons Double Acting Baking Powder
1 Teaspoon Granulated (table) Salt

This is about as close as I can "guesstimate" - hope it gives you a starting point that will work for you.
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