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Old 10-06-2004, 08:02 AM   #11
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"I did the unspeakable yesterday. I decided in desperation to buy a premix choc cake (Cadbury Velvet) w ganache."

A cake mix?! Blasphemous! I'm sorry, but we're going to have to do to you what they did to Mel Gibson in that Mad Max movie. You will get exiled into the desert with a big thing tied to your head, never to return again. A cake mix, tsk, tsk....
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Old 10-06-2004, 11:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonr
"I did the unspeakable yesterday. I decided in desperation to buy a premix choc cake (Cadbury Velvet) w ganache."

A cake mix?! Blasphemous! I'm sorry, but we're going to have to do to you what they did to Mel Gibson in that Mad Max movie. You will get exiled into the desert with a big thing tied to your head, never to return again. A cake mix, tsk, tsk....
I feel more that way about mixed spices. If you look on the ingredient label of a cake mix, you will probably find ingredients that you do not have easy access to, in pure form. That, alone, partially justifies using cake mix.

What I object to is not having easy access to all such food ingredients, both natural and synthetic, in their pure state. Also, there are no cookbooks with recipes using such ingredients, e.g. methyl cellulose. It must be part of a Big Brother conspiracy to dominate the World and turn its occupants into mindless drones!
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Old 10-07-2004, 09:26 AM   #13
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"What I object to is not having easy access to all such food ingredients, both natural and synthetic, in their pure state"

LOL! I'm sorry, but you're the first person I've ever met who advocated store bought goods over homemade to get access to all those tasty additives and preservatives that you just can't find in the local supermarket :)

"there are no cookbooks with recipes using such ingredients, e.g. methyl cellulose"

This reminds me of a funny story from high school. In a french class, we were asked to buddy up with a partner and together bake a recipe for something. (If you're wondering what the heck this has to do with french, I believe we had to write a report on the experience in french, or some such thing) Anyway, my buddy said he had the best recipe for something or other, so I decided he would give me the ingredients, and then we could tell them to my grandmother, and she would help us make the recipe. Anyway, I read off these ingredients to my grandmother, and she couldn't figure out what I was talking about, because they were all stuff like methyl cellulose and whatnot. It turns out that the fool had just taken the back of the box of a Pillsbury dessert or some such thing and read off the ingredient list, just assuming that we could kind of put it all together in a pot and PRESTO, chocolate cake! Needless to say, my grandmother gave us a real recipe, which we made instead :)
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Old 10-07-2004, 10:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonr
"What I object to is not having easy access to all such food ingredients, both natural and synthetic, in their pure state"

LOL! I'm sorry, but you're the first person I've ever met who advocated store bought goods over homemade to get access to all those tasty additives and preservatives that you just can't find in the local supermarket :)

"there are no cookbooks with recipes using such ingredients, e.g. methyl cellulose"

This reminds me of a funny story from high school. In a french class, we were asked to buddy up with a partner and together bake a recipe for something. (If you're wondering what the heck this has to do with french, I believe we had to write a report on the experience in french, or some such thing) Anyway, my buddy said he had the best recipe for something or other, so I decided he would give me the ingredients, and then we could tell them to my grandmother, and she would help us make the recipe. Anyway, I read off these ingredients to my grandmother, and she couldn't figure out what I was talking about, because they were all stuff like methyl cellulose and whatnot. It turns out that the fool had just taken the back of the box of a Pillsbury dessert or some such thing and read off the ingredient list, just assuming that we could kind of put it all together in a pot and PRESTO, chocolate cake! Needless to say, my grandmother gave us a real recipe, which we made instead :)
So, you milk your own cow, separate the cream, and churn your own butter? If not, why should it be any different with methyl celullose?

The reason that hardly anyone wants access to these ingredients is:

1. Peer pressure, i.e. monkey see, monkey do.

2. They do not know the purposes of the ingredients.

3. Most people NEVER give it any serious thought. Do they think that the professionals who develop the formulations listed on almost every processed food that they eat are fools or idiots?

4. The FDA forbids sale to consumers of many food ingredients in pure form.

It is not enough that you obey Big Brother, you must love Big Brother.
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Old 10-07-2004, 02:41 PM   #15
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"So, you milk your own cow, separate the cream, and churn your own butter? If not, why should it be any different with methyl celullose?"

Yes, at a certain point, we have to rely on others to produce/process our ingredients. Obviously I'm not out churning my own butter or slaughtering my own cattle (although the geese that frequent my campus look mighty tasty, and if I could just catch one... never mind :twisted: ) but if you can't tell the difference between a basic store-bought ingredient like milk, and some random lab-made chemical additive with fifty syllables on the back of a twinky wrapper, then you're really being obtuse.

"3. Most people NEVER give it any serious thought. Do they think that the professionals who develop the formulations listed on almost every processed food that they eat are fools or idiots?"

Aruzinsky, obviously you have not thought this through clearly. No one is saying that these ingredients don't have their purpose. I'm just saying that most of them are probably preservatives or compounds more related to efficient mass production and storage than taste and quality. It's not that the professionals behind your average box of cookies or twinkies are fools, it's just that their priorities are substantially different from the home-baker's. Store-bought goods have to be made at the cheapest possible price at high volumes; it goes without saying that there will be additives which contribute little or nothing to overall quality, but have peripheral purposes, not relevant to home baking. Yes, if you go to fancy specialty stores, you can find quality pre-made goods, but for the most part, what you find on the grocery store shelf is filled with ingredients that have little or nothing to do with quality. I have alot of cookbooks, most meant for amateur home bakers, and some meant for professionals. I have watched cooking shows, read articles, subscribe to cooking magazines, and own an ingredient encyclopedia, and I have NEVER seen ingredients like what you see on the back of an average processed good from a grocery store in any of these. Let me ask you this: are professional chefs, who make their living out of cooking quality food for small numbers of people (relatively small compared to mass produced goods) so foolish and/or stupid that they don't know what ingredients do well in their dishes? And tell me, what pure ingredients are banned by the FDA, and why?
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Old 10-07-2004, 09:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonr
"So, you milk your own cow, separate the cream, and churn your own butter? If not, why should it be any different with methyl celullose?"

Yes, at a certain point, we have to rely on others to produce/process our ingredients. Obviously I'm not out churning my own butter or slaughtering my own cattle (although the geese that frequent my campus look mighty tasty, and if I could just catch one... never mind :twisted: ) but if you can't tell the difference between a basic store-bought ingredient like milk, and some random lab-made chemical additive with fifty syllables on the back of a twinky wrapper, then you're really being obtuse.

"3. Most people NEVER give it any serious thought. Do they think that the professionals who develop the formulations listed on almost every processed food that they eat are fools or idiots?"

Aruzinsky, obviously you have not thought this through clearly. No one is saying that these ingredients don't have their purpose. I'm just saying that most of them are probably preservatives or compounds more related to efficient mass production and storage than taste and quality. It's not that the professionals behind your average box of cookies or twinkies are fools, it's just that their priorities are substantially different from the home-baker's. Store-bought goods have to be made at the cheapest possible price at high volumes; it goes without saying that there will be additives which contribute little or nothing to overall quality, but have peripheral purposes, not relevant to home baking. Yes, if you go to fancy specialty stores, you can find quality pre-made goods, but for the most part, what you find on the grocery store shelf is filled with ingredients that have little or nothing to do with quality. I have alot of cookbooks, most meant for amateur home bakers, and some meant for professionals. I have watched cooking shows, read articles, subscribe to cooking magazines, and own an ingredient encyclopedia, and I have NEVER seen ingredients like what you see on the back of an average processed good from a grocery store in any of these. Let me ask you this: are professional chefs, who make their living out of cooking quality food for small numbers of people (relatively small compared to mass produced goods) so foolish and/or stupid that they don't know what ingredients do well in their dishes? And tell me, what pure ingredients are banned by the FDA, and why?
I am not a lawyer and do not know the details of the FDA laws, but it is my understanding that they set concentration limits on some food ingredients that are sold for consumer use in food. For example, I can buy wintergreen or sweet birch oil which are 98% methyl salicylate, but not without a warning that it is not for internal use. Wintergreen life savers and rootbeer contain exactly this. Another example is heliotropin which I can't buy at all, but for a different reason. It is controlled because it can be used to make amphetamines. In both cases, the consumer can buy these at great dilutions in the form of "flavor extracts." A cook would have better control over flavor, if given access to the individual chemical components in artificial flavoring "extracts" presently sold to the consumer. And, yes, there is a flavor advantage to some artificial flavors over natural flavors. I prefer certain artificial rum flavorings over real rum in eggnog (better yet, both). I prefer certain artificial pistachio flavorings, which tastes nothing like real pistachio, in ice cream. My favorite rootbeer (Fanta no longer available) was 100% artificially flavored.

Also, let me remind you that when an ingredient is adulterated or diluted, the cost of packaging, shipping and storage increases. These costs get passed on to the consumer. Sometimes adulteration is done voluntarily by the manufacturer without FDA interference. For example, I can't buy pure sucralose (Splenda).

One more thing. Pure ingredients are intrinsically standardized while diluted ingredients are not. The concentration of diluted ingredients varies from manufacturer to manufacturer which can lead to all sorts of problems.
For example, someone wanted to know how much food coloring to add to cake. Without being familiar with the specific brand, I do not know. Had the food dye been in pure form and the generic name given, then it would be possible to give advice without knowing the specific brand.
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Old 10-08-2004, 12:23 AM   #17
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Wow, :oops:

All I am trying to do is get a cake out of the oven. :)

Since the cake mix (I promise - never again), I have tried the same homemade recipe and combining different ways, basically:

1.5 cups AP flour
1 cup Sugar
1 tsp baking powder
1 tsp b soda
150 mls milk
2 eggs (used 60gm eggs)
0.5 tsp vanilla

* I was given the option of 1 egg & 200mls milk or as shown above.

Bake 180 deg C (about 350 - 360 F)


Combining.
Lazy Cake - everything in the bowl and mix low speed until moist then 75% for 3 minutes & transfer to baking tin.

Fold in flour - mix all ingredients except flour. When fully incorporated, fold in flour until fully combined then Xfer to tin.

I tried the beaten egg whites today but busted a yoke into the whites so today's trial ended up a lazy cake.

Many small cafes and snack shops bake their own cakes from scratch not a premix and produce beautiful results - which is what I would like to do.

The majority of readers of this forum can can produce beaut results from scratch, I cannot - yet.

Many additives are added as fungal retardants and freshness agents. If you do things right then there is no need for either. Even my flops are gone within hours (eaten or horse feed :) ).

And what a way to show off. Front up to a party, BBQ or whatever, things are running smoothly 'nibblies' are running short because somebody spiked the salad dressing with 'pot', guests get the munchies and eat the hosts out of house & home. "No worries', says the show off,"Where's yer flour, show me the kitchen, here comes a coupla cakes & a coupla loaves."


My cooking skills are purely survival only & I want to learn more. And ain't I learning. :)

I live in a dairy area, use free range (backyard) eggs, what more can I say. Haven't purposely churned our own butter up here yet, but used to do it often back on the farm as a kid. The churn was a homemade hand job made from the crank of an old Fordson tractor, & as far as I know it is still working today, still on the same tree stump. Memories are scary things .

This is too long. CU Soon.

Brooksy
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:47 AM   #18
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mmm cadbury mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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