Steak Tartare/Carpaccio/ Ceviche

[Andy M.]

Supermarket eggs can be MUCH older than that. Eggs are stored in climate controlled warehouses. According to s/one I know who works in one such warehouse, eggs can be on the shelves there for up to 12 MONTHS before they leave. Mind you, most of those year-old eggs are used for dried egg products. However, eggs that are on special (those 99 cents/dozen eggs) are often older eggs (~6 mo. old).

I'm not disputing what you say. I will add this: In decades of egg use, pretty much exclusively from supermarkets, I have never come across an egg that even slightly appeared to be "off". Certainly none that had an off odor or appearance. Maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[CWS4322]

The eggs won't necessarily be "off" (eggs keep for a very long time), older eggs have flatter yolks and the opacity of the white will diminish as the evaporation process occurs as the egg ages. If I had any store-bought eggs, I'd take one of this morning's eggs and snap a picture of it (broken) next to a store-bought egg, but I don't have any store-bought eggs. Until the bloom is taken off the egg (i.e., the eggs are washed), evaporation does not occur at the same rate as it does with washed eggs.

Re the yolks and whites of fresh eggs, it is difficult to explain without visuals but I can tell which chefs on TV are using store-bought eggs vs. farm-fresh by the shape of the yolks. Also, fresh eggs "dance" above the skillet because of higher moisture content in the white and the whites don't get rubbery. When I bring warm eggs in and put them in a skillet, they float in the pan and take about 45-60 seconds to cook. That was one of the first things I noticed when I started raising laying hens and eating their eggs. And, the color is more intense and the flavor is definitely better re: fresh eggs vs. store-bought eggs.

 

[pacanis]

The nice thing about store-bought eggs... and also the bad thing, depending on how you look at it... is the shells have been washed. Washing the shells gets rid of the bloom which protects the egg and makes it last longer, that's bad, but it also washes off any nasties. And that's good. Most bacteria is introduced to an egg when the shell is cracked.
If you really want to be safe with fresh eggs that you didn't collect yourself you should wipe them off, even if you don't see anything, before cracking them.

 

[Andy M.]

The eggs won't necessarily be "off" (eggs keep for a very long time), older eggs have flatter yolks and the opacity of the white will diminish as the evaporation process occurs as the egg ages. If I had any store-bought eggs, I'd take one of this morning's eggs and snap a picture of it (broken) next to a store-bought egg, but I don't have any store-bought eggs. Until the bloom is taken off the egg (i.e., the eggs are washed), evaporation does not occur at the same rate as it does with washed eggs.

Re the yolks and whites of fresh eggs, it is difficult to explain without visuals but I can tell which chefs on TV are using store-bought eggs vs. farm-fresh by the shape of the yolks. Also, fresh eggs "dance" above the skillet because of higher moisture content in the white and the whites don't get rubbery. When I bring warm eggs in and put them in a skillet, they float in the pan and take about 45-60 seconds to cook. That was one of the first things I noticed when I started raising laying hens and eating their eggs. And, the color is more intense and the flavor is definitely better re: fresh eggs vs. store-bought eggs.

I don't need you to explain or show me the differences. I am aware of them. My point is that store-bought eggs are not as evil as you and others paint them.

 

[CWS4322]

I don't need you to explain or show me the differences. I am aware of them. My point is that store-bought eggs are not as evil as you and others paint them.

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say that supermarket eggs were evil (definitely not my preference), but my preference for farm eggs stems not just from the differences in the quality of the eggs, but also the differences in how the hens are kept.

 

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

Luca Augen - freshly ground beef, formed into a cube. Make a depression on top. Partially fill with 1 tbs. of good caviar. Top with egg yolk.

Haven't had it, but it is listed in one cookbook that I have as one of the worlds 100 best recipes.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North

 

[Zagut]

Thanks for the link Steve.

Emeril's recipe looks good. Others I've found have differing ingredients like Worcestershire sauce, hot sauce, pickles, and olives. Glad to get one someone has tried and enjoyed. I also like his idea of cooked eggs for a garnish.

Are the raw egg whites used? I was always under the impression it was just the yoke. For some reason to me raw whites sound gross (A snot aversion issue) but raw yokes don't.

As far as Ceviche being just seafood. You're most likely correct. I'm not much for nomenclature and it was just a term I came across while looking for raw recipes.

I don't plan on grinding the beef. I don't want mush either. No food processor here so it will be hand diced to pea size or a bit smaller. I also don't have filet to use but was going to use Ribeye. Gonna cut the cap off a couple of steaks. I also won't be making more then a 1/2 pound because when I've mentioned to others they scrunch up there noses.


Chief, Can you recommend a "good" caviar? I'd give it a try but every time I've had caviar I kind of wish I'd had a spoon of cat food instead. I've been told I need to have a "good" caviar but so far I guess I haven't.


Mad Cook, Thanks for your concern about food safety. I respect it too and I'd rather be warned many times rather then have everyone keep silent and let me do something stupid. (Oh don't worry folks. I'm sure I'll do many stupid things in the future. It's my second name) I look it as I do with my tools. You have to respect them but you can't fear them. If you do you'll get nothing done.





Now to the egg debate I've started.

Pac. made this statement. " Most bacteria is introduced to an egg when the shell is cracked."


That's more or less where I stand on the issue. I was asking more from the flavor standpoint. I'm think I'm going to use a fresh egg from next door but I'm going to be sure to wash it real well. Having my neighbor raise chickens has shown me how much they poop and how it get's everywhere. I've had both farm fresh and store bought side by side and personally didn't taste much difference.



Thanks for letting me ramble.

 

[dcSaute]

"raw beef" dishes occur in many many cultures and places - the "general" seasoning approach varies widely as does the 'stuff put on top / along side'

dems' da' facts. not sure if there are more opinions than facts, but as your research has shown, there is no "one and only" way / recipe.

love the stuff, but I only order steak tartare in very ultra-reputable places.

I fix it at home - I tell the butcher what I'm doing; he drags out the freshest least handled chunks he has. I double grind it with an old fashion hand grinder. never tried chunks...and actually chunks don't appeal to me, so....

a complete raw egg dropped into a well is my "classic" experience - but there's a lot of ways to enjoy it.

eggs: once upon a time it was thought salmonella was strictly an exterior contaminate. hence the USDA theory of washing eggs; and which procedures oh by the way require processors to "reseal" the egg shell with "artificial bloom" - and do note that the whole FDA/USDA stuff only applies to interstate commerce and sources with more than 5,000 hens laying (I think the number is right; working from memory....) so your local hen house, although a wonderful locavoire haunt, is exempt from all Federal regulations & testing protocols and is probably a higher risk than your run-of-the-mall supermarket. but I buy local eggs comma anyway.

more recently, and not all that recent, it has been demonstrated that an egg can be contaminated with salmonella prior to being laid by the hen. furthermore and with much flappola and ado, it has been demonstrated that the aforementioned and accused hen can lay a contaminated egg today, and a not contaminated egg tomorrow.

so if you're going to consume raw eggs, one must be mentally prepared for the off chance - you'll get sick. your chances with raw eggs are likely better than eating at fast food joints, btw.

 

[Steve Kroll]

Are the raw egg whites used? I was always under the impression it was just the yoke. For some reason to me raw whites sound gross (A snot aversion issue) but raw yokes don't.

I suspect that's a misprint. It's been a while since I've made it, but I'm sure I would've only used the yolk, since I don't eat raw egg whites, either.

My dad, who was a butcher by trade, used to make his own version of steak tartare. He used worcestershire and onion powder in his. Not exactly classic ingredients, but pretty darned good.

 

[taxlady]

One of the advantages of buying eggs from the chicken farmer is that you can ask if the chickens have been vaccinated against salmonella.

 

[taxlady]

I suspect that's a misprint. It's been a while since I've made it, but I'm sure I would've only used the yolk, since I don't eat raw egg whites, either.

My dad, who was a butcher by trade, used to make his own version of steak tartare. He used worcestershire and onion powder in his. Not exactly classic ingredients, but pretty darned good.

I think you are right about the misprint. I have never heard of using the egg whites with steak tartare.

 

[Zagut]

Thanks again Steve. That's one reason I wanted to hear from someone who'd made it. Misprints are all to common and can change a dish quite a bit. Is my changing it from loin to ribeye cap going to make much difference IYHO? It's a tasty cut so I figured it would work.

Taxlady, I'm sure my neighbor hasn't had them vaccinated against salmonella. I didn't know that could be done. I'll mention it to her. I wouldn't call her a "chicken farmer". She's just a lady who loves her chickens, has lot's of them, and has ton's of eggs she is always trying to get rid of. And thanks for seconding not using raw whites. That just seems gross to me.


Okay folks. I'm going to make this tomorrow before the local beef gets too old. I'm going to use Steve's basic recipe and maybe tweek it a bit. If you don't hear from me again I've offed myself from evil poisons due to improper food preparation.

But I've got a feeling you won't be so lucky and you'll have to put up with me in the future. Perhaps you won't hear from me for awhile due to an extended hospital stay but I've got a feeling I'll be back.

 

[Zagut]

Almost forgot.

Before I kick the bucket, Thanks DC. for your input.

You're so right about there is no "one and only" way. Take what you want and leave the rest.

That's why I'm leaving the raw whites. Just can't do it.

And I couldn't agree more about your observation about raw eggs and fast food.

You pay your money and you take your chances.

 

[Steve Kroll]

Thanks again Steve. That's one reason I wanted to hear from someone who'd made it. Misprints are all to common and can change a dish quite a bit. Is my changing it from loin to ribeye cap going to make much difference IYHO? It's a tasty cut so I figured it would work.

The only reason I like tenderloin in ST is because of the almost total lack of fat. While I love fattier cuts of meat when cooked, there's something about raw fat that's a little weird to me texture-wise. But it could very well just be me.

By the way, did you know this dish is sometimes made from horse meat in Europe? I wonder what cut they use.

 

[JMediger]

I was going to say what Steve said ... Ribeye has the fat which may throw off your texture a bit. I know when we make wildcat, we use very lean ground beef for that reason. The fat is cold and gets weird. And yes to just the yolk. Let us know how it turns out!

I'm not weighing in on the whole egg "discussion" other than to say I would trust a woman who loves her chickens

 

[Dawgluver]

The only reason I like tenderloin in ST is because of the almost total lack of fat. While I love fattier cuts of meat when cooked, there's something about raw fat that's a little weird to me texture-wise. But it could very well just be me.

Ewwww, raw fat. I agree, Steve and JMediger!

 

[Zagut]

Thanks folks. I see what you're saying about raw fat and how it can be kind of gross. The cuts I'm going to use aren't heavily fatted and the meat has a nice "beefy taste. The next time I go local I'll get a loin and give that a try but you work with what you have.

Steve My neighbor has horses too but I don't think she'll be willing to let me chop off a hunk to make Tartare.

JMediger, She loves her chickens to a fault. And I'll let you know how it turns out if I live past all the food safety issues.

 

[CWS4322]

Zagut--I would eat eggs from your neighbour without worrying as long as she keeps her chicken coop clean and rodents are not an issue since rodents are the carriers, the laying hens do not suffer, and it is transferred to the eggs. I lightly brush off any dirt on the eggs and do not wash them because washing them removes the bloom. I also crack the egg on a flat surface and into a cup rather than directly into the pan so if there is an issue, e.g., a bloody egg, I can deal with that.

I've eaten a lot of raw eggs (eggnog when a child, tartar as a teenager, Caesar dressing, etc., and have made it to 55 years w/out suffering from doing so).

 

[Zagut]

Just wanted to let you all know "I ain't dead yet"


Had to wait until the weekend to make it. I followed and scaled down Emeril's recipe that Steve gave me.

Turned out quite good if I must say so myself.

Now that I've had it I'll know how I might want to tweek it in the future with the information from all the various recipes.

It sure isn't something you want to chow down on large amounts of.

And for the eggheads here. I used fresh eggs from my neighbor. I even got to personally thank the chicken who laid them.

 

[taxlady]

Glad to see you are alive and well and enjoyed the steak tartar.