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Old 11-08-2004, 04:25 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mudbug
Guess I will also leave out the onions, celery, etc. that I used to throw in for a change as well.
Mudbug, I prepare my stock without aromatics for two reasons

1. Because I feel it gives me greater flexibility later down the line. If I need stock for a dish that I don't want the taste of celery, for example.

2. Onions and carrots both leech off starch that, in turn, cause an emulsifying effect on stock. This prevents less fat from rising to the top for skimming off.
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Old 11-08-2004, 04:30 PM   #22
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Interesting, didn't know that. Typically I don't get much fat to skim either.

I was also interested to hear about creating stock with fresh vs. roasted parts. Usually I've used "pre-driven" parts, so I'm thinking next time I will use fresh unused pieces to see what result I get.
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Old 11-08-2004, 05:31 PM   #23
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Yes, the vast majority of chefs don't roast their poultry either.

Using an unroasted bird gives you a lighter stock. There are a handful of recipes where you need a vey light (white) stock, both from a perspective of flavor and appearance. I don't find myself making them much.

The one interesting thing that I've learned about using fresh chicken for stock is that during the entire process of simmering, maillard (browning) compounds are being formed, especially during the final reduction, as the moisture is being boiled away. Basically, if you reduce an unroasted stock enough, you get the exact same color/flavor as if you started with a roasted bird.

If your goal is the whitest stock possible, beginning with fresh poultry and simmering it/reducing it minimally will help to achieve that end.

Like I said, recipes utilizing white stock aren't my thing :) White stocks, imo, are a more aristocratic approach where roasted stocks seem to be more in the line of peasant food.
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Old 11-08-2004, 06:19 PM   #24
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Thanks for the info, scott!
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Old 11-09-2004, 07:33 AM   #25
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Vinegar - how much?

I read the various posts about vinegar and agree that it should help in gaining as much of the valuable bone material as possible.

Quick question - how much vinegar to use? I don't want to throw away a stock because I've used too much. :)
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Old 11-09-2004, 01:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott123
The one interesting thing that I've learned about using fresh chicken for stock is that during the entire process of simmering, maillard (browning) compounds are being formed, especially during the final reduction, as the moisture is being boiled away. Basically, if you reduce an unroasted stock enough, you get the exact same color/flavor as if you started with a roasted bird..
A :?:

The Maillard reaction is not fully triggered until approximatley 285 degrees or higher (depending on pH, etc)

Simmering water is less than 212 degrees (at sea level).

So how can just simmering create melanoidins (the brown savory stuff)?
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Old 11-09-2004, 02:07 PM   #27
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keen kook, I use about 2 tbsps per stockpot of water. That would be two carcasses worth of bones.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:07 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyema
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott123
The one interesting thing that I've learned about using fresh chicken for stock is that during the entire process of simmering, maillard (browning) compounds are being formed, especially during the final reduction, as the moisture is being boiled away. Basically, if you reduce an unroasted stock enough, you get the exact same color/flavor as if you started with a roasted bird..
A :?:

The Maillard reaction is not fully triggered until approximatley 285 degrees or higher (depending on pH, etc)

Simmering water is less than 212 degrees (at sea level).

So how can just simmering create melanoidins (the brown savory stuff)?
Browning reactions are associated with higher temperatures as that range is where they occur the quickest/most readily. Given the right conditions/time, they occuring at much lower temperatures, even room temp.

As stock simmers, it takes on color. It's an extremely slow process. During the final reduction stage, as the proteins/sugars become more concentrated, the process accelerates. It never reaches the speed at which color occurs in a roasting environment, but it does produce a darker stock.

Take a pot of strained stock and split it into two pots. Reduce one pot by 3/4, add water back to it's original volume, then visually compare the two pots. The reduced stock will be noticeably darker.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:18 AM   #29
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I've been giving some thought to altering the pH of stock with vinegar.

The bone material is not what makes good stock. It's the collagen/gelatin that the bones/skin/cartilage/connective tissue contain. This gelatin melts with prolonged moist cooking. Just water and heat. By adding acid to the mix you're accelerating the disintegration of the bones.

Although the bones do break down to an extent during prolonged simmering, this is most definitely not the goal. Bones don't taste good. Collagen/gelatin tastes good. You want to minimize bone dissolution, not maximize it.

Sure, the bones add extra calcium to your diet. If you need extra calcium, take a supplement.
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Old 11-10-2004, 09:16 AM   #30
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I used to make stocks every 2 or 3 months or so. I haven't done it in quite some time though. To make it right, it surely takes a good part of a day and that kinda time is something I don't have much anymore.

I have a 24 quart All Clad stock pot. A finished batch of stock out of this will serve me for awhile. I first make a great pot of soup. Maybe two. Then, I freeze the rest of my stock in ice cube trays. Pan sauces, small sauces, etc. I have homemade stock just by reaching in my extra ice cube trays. Pretty nifty, huh?

Here's my ratio of prep for chicken stock:

The size of your stock pot is 100%.
Fill it 50% with bones.
Fill it 10% with THICK, ROUGH CHOPPED Mirepoix. (2 parts onion, 1 part carrot, 1 part celery)
Fill it to the top with COLD water.
Add a sachet with peppercorn, a few bay leaves, and some thyme. (Judge on how much you need by the size of the batch.)


Bring it to a simmer. Never stir or boil. Alway skim the scum off the top.

NOTE: If your bones are frozen, blanch them first before using.

Chicken stock cooks for a minimum of 8 hours.


For beef stock, it is the same procedure except the bones are to be painted with tomato paste, then roasted in the oven before you make stock.

Beef stock cooks for a minimum of 10 hours.



Both are passed through a strainer lined with cheesecloth when done.



Golly, I'm hungry! I soooooo want me some soup!

RJ
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