"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > Recipes & Ingredients > Sauces, Marinades, Rubs > Sauces
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-12-2011, 10:51 AM   #11
Executive Chef
 
Bolas De Fraile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,193
Mate I could fill a bath with the amount of bechamel I have made using flour without it ever being grainy, if you do not cook the Roux "out" enough it my taste raw. A classic UK dish is cauliflower cheese if you use corn flour in the sauce it will break down when you bake it, this also applies to meat pie fillings.
__________________

__________________
I was married by a judge, I should have asked for a jury.
Bolas De Fraile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 11:07 AM   #12
Chef Extraordinaire
 
Zhizara's Avatar
Site Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 12,537
If you are concerned about graininess, I suggest you use a finer flour.
__________________

__________________

If you can't see the bright side of life, polish the dull side.
Zhizara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 11:33 AM   #13
Sous Chef
 
Nicholas Mosher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 768
I would suggest learning to make a proper béchamel through experimentation. You need to cook a béchamel long enough for it to lose it's "grainy" texture. With a light roux, you also need this extended cooking time to remove the "raw" flavor of flour that sometimes persists in light sauces (I give mine at least an hour). Once this point has been reached, you can then add your cheese(s) for the Mornay. Weeping is a classic problem that occurs with cornstarch thickened sauces.
-----
On another note, I would disagree with the "Absolute" comment regarding the peerless quality of the America's Test Kitchen employee. While I find ATK an entertaining show/magazine, they're sometimes horribly off base with their science and history.
__________________
Nick ~ "Egg whites are good for a lot of things; lemon meringue pie, angel food cake, and clogging up radiators." - MacGyver
Nicholas Mosher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 12:34 PM   #14
Sous Chef
 
Silversage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Mosher View Post
On another note, I would disagree with the "Absolute" comment regarding the peerless quality of the America's Test Kitchen employee. While I find ATK an entertaining show/magazine, they're sometimes horribly off base with their science and history.
You're putting words in my mouth. Neither I nor anyone else said "absolute" anything. I just told him that if he was trying to make Kenji's sauce (which by the way, was not called a bechamel in the linked article - he was trying to duplicate the cheese sauce from Fuddruckers Restaurant), he should follow the directions. Don't follow half of someone's directions, then then go somewhere else and ask what went wrong.

It's kind of like saying "I made your spaghetti recipe, but I didn't have pasta so I used rice, and I didn't have oregano so i used tarragon, and I didn't have garlic so I used......"
__________________
In our house, dog hair is a condiment!
OMG! I decided to blog!
Silversage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 12:48 PM   #15
Senior Cook
 
garlicjosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA.
Posts: 199
Send a message via MSN to garlicjosh
I do strongly agree in the not subbing of things in such recipes.
However, I have used flour a great deal in my own and in many of my other sauces and have NEVER had a grainy section or a cereal taste that is oh so common when people don't cook the roux long enough.

I would go back and try the recipe one more time with the evaporated milk, I must have missed that in the post some how, that will make a great deal of difference. I would have a hard time dismissing one of his recipes myself.
__________________
garlicjosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 01:38 PM   #16
Sous Chef
 
Nicholas Mosher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversage
No one is better than Kenji at the food science stuff.
That is an absolute claim.

The original poster was not following the linked recipe, he simply used the idea of thickening the sauce with cornstarch due to difficulties with using flour. Contrary to your position, anyone can try to be creative and then politely ask what possible explanations exist for a certain result.

From his post, I gather he is trying to make a smooth cheese sauce, which is why so many others chimed in about a Béchamel (including myself).
__________________
Nick ~ "Egg whites are good for a lot of things; lemon meringue pie, angel food cake, and clogging up radiators." - MacGyver
Nicholas Mosher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 02:38 PM   #17
Senior Cook
 
garlicjosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA.
Posts: 199
Send a message via MSN to garlicjosh
makes sense to me Nicholas
__________________
garlicjosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 02:45 PM   #18
Executive Chef
 
Rocklobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ottawa Valley, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by satguy123 View Post
No matter how well they are made, there is still a faint graininess to them and a distinct flavor that may be appropriate in a lasagna or a Hot Brown Sandwich, but not for fry-cheese.
Hey, welcome. I disagree with this post, satguy.
__________________
Rocklobster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 03:01 PM   #19
Sous Chef
 
Silversage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocklobster View Post
Hey, welcome. I disagree with this post, satguy.
That post is exactly my point. I suggest we all read the link before criticizing. The original poster quoted the following verbatim (although without giving credit) from the blog article, describing what he was trying to achieve. He is looking for a cheese sauce for his fries, not a bechamel. This sauce is to stay smooth, silky and flowing even when cooled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by satguy123 View Post
No matter how well they are made, there is still a faint graininess to them and a distinct flavor that may be appropriate in a lasagna or a Hot Brown Sandwich, but not for fry-cheese.
In the article, the author clearly differentiates a cornstarch based sauce from a bechamel. I suspect our OP has never actually experienced graininess in a flour based sauce, but read the article, and so adopted the thought. If he was actually trying to achieve a bechamel, the advice given by many posters was definitely correct. But all too often online, we all want to answer the question that fits our knowledge, rather than the question that the poster needs answered. And too many people read the first question and never take the time to read the rest of the information that follows.

Perhaps we're all at fault for not first asking him what he intended to do with his sauce, before we offered up answers.

Further, Nicholas, I'm at a loss as to why you feel so threatened by a comment giving Kenji Alt credit for being very good at food science and experimentation. He's very highly regarded for his work. Yet you seem positively angry about it. Would you feel the same way if I said something nice about Alton Brown, Harold McGee, or Michael Ruhlman? Or is it just his past affiliation with ATK that you object to?
__________________
In our house, dog hair is a condiment!
OMG! I decided to blog!
Silversage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 03:03 PM   #20
Executive Chef
 
Rocklobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ottawa Valley, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,787
Just microwave some Cheeze whiz. Close enough.
__________________

__________________
Rocklobster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
butter, cheese, corn starch, milk, recipe

Why did my bechamel/cheese sauce fail? Hi All Im trying to figure out why something like this would happen to a sauce. Its never happened before to me. Made a fairly good cheese sauce recently. The texture was great, nice and thick and cheesey, taste was good and most important of all it was grain free. It was smooth as cheese sauce should be. At least it was at the start. Basically i took: 50 grams unsalted butter 3 Tablespoons corn starch 900ml of milk 3 cups of grated masdam cheese (nice melting European cheese) 1 Teaspoon of salt Melted the butter. Took it off the heat and added corn starch and whisked together until lump free. Put it back on the heat and added the milk and again whisked together continuously just like making a bechamel sauce. The sauce thickens up nicely after 5-10 min and i turn the heat down and keep cooking it a bit longer to get the raw corn starch flavors out. Took it off the heat and let it cool down a little so as to not overcook the cheese in the next step. Then 1 handful at a time i added the cheese while whisking at the same time. at the end added the salt to taste. The result was a very thick,smooth and very nice tasting cheese sauce. Then as it began cooling it started taking on a more liquid gelatinous consistency. By the time it had cooled completely over an hour it was as liquid as the milk i started with. The sauce was ruined. My question is what's the scientific reason behind this? And what steps can i take to stop this from happening. thanks:chef: 3 stars 1 reviews
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.