Tough meat from pressure cooker

[ahains]

About a 1.5 weeks ago I bought a big hunk (about 3.5 lbs, I think it was) of boneless beef bottom round roast since it was on sale for $1.99 / pound. Threw it in the pressure cooker for awhile, maybe 30 minutes, then depressurized it to add potatoes/carrots/cellery and cooked it another 15 or something. Sorry, I don't remember the actual times. I checked the temp of the meat briefly after it was done cooking and it shot up to 200* so I didn't even bother to let the thermometer stabilize - all I know is it was very hot.
It was extremely delicious, and fairly tender. Not falling apart on the fork tender, but I was able to shred it with two forks without too much work.

Fast forward a few days and I want to try to improve this so I buy another one (still on sale). This time I'm thinking about how Alton Brown talked up aging beef on Good Eats, so I stored it in the fridge for 3 days with good circulation. Then I put it in a zip loc baggie for 24 hours with some red wine (about a cup), garlic, bay leaves, and a bit of olive oil (about 1/2 cup).
After that I cooked it in the pressure cooker (with about another cup of red wine) for less time, maybe 20 minutes, and the thermometer reported 160*F which sounded great to me.

The beef was very tasty, with perhaps more yummy beefy flavor than the first time. BUT, it was a serious workout to try and shred it with two forks. I almost bent the forks. I gave up and just ate it with a fork and a knife.

My question to you all is if you would expect the beef to get more or less tender if I had kept cooking it at that point. Should I have let it go as long as the first time? Or is it better to have a temp around 160*F and my problem was just the lost moisture from the aging process? I'm googling around the web but I can't find any clear science to tell me either way.

Thanks!
-Adrian

 

[Andy M.]

The answer is in the internal temperature of the roast. It has to be around 200 F for that shreddable texture. It takes that temperature to breakdown the connective tissue that makes the meat a tough cut.

 

[ahains]

Thanks a bunch for the info! I'm going to have to give this dish one more try and cook it longer to see how it goes.
I found some more info here:
Tender beef - What causes toughness?
This one states that over 100*C you get additional tenderizing, which my pressure cooker will readily supply. It also mentions that ageing tenderizes, but I doubt my 3 day aging process will do a whole lot in this area

 

[Crash]

ahains

In either method of aging, (dry/wet), most of the tenderizing occurs in the first three days. The beef you are using has been already wet aged in its vacuum packaging as it traveled from processing plant to your grocer's and has reached its maximum tenderness buy the time you buy it.

Any additional dry aging in your fridge would only intensify the beef flavor and somewhat change its character.

 

[Corey123]

I once made the tragic mistake of directly dry-roasting this cut in the oven - and it also came out tough as an alligator steak!!

Even though the pressure cooker is a speedy means of getting cheaper tougher cuts of meat done in a hurry, I mainly prefer to slow cook (braise) this cut either on top of the stove or in the slow cooker.

As a longer method to break down the tough fibers and connective tissues of the meat.

 

[Michael in FtW]

Aging will improve (concentrate) flavor- but when dealing with "cheaper" cuts of beef (both the grade and where on the animal it comes from) it has no tenderizing affect on the connective tissue ... which is what makes the meat tough. Remember, Alto was dry aging a Prime grade cut of tender meat - not one with relatively little inter-muscular fat (marbling) and loaded with connective tissue.

As Corey noted - this is not a cut of meat that can be dry roasted - it has to be cooked with a wet method (braising or stewing - the pressure cooker would solve that problem) and as Andy noted - it's also a matter of time and temperature ... connective tissue doesn't begin to break down (melt) until about 180ºF ... and then it needs a little time to do that, it's not an instant melt.

It sounds like you had both the time and temperature right the first time ... 45 minutes of cooking got the meat up over the 180ºF mark for about twice the time of the second roast - 20 minutes which only got it up to 160ºF, below the melting point of the connective tissues (and you didn't say anything about adding vegetables and cooking for any additional time after the initial 20-minutes cooking time so I'm guess the cooking stopped at 20 minutes?).

 

[ahains]

Thanks everyone for the helpful information, you are quickly dispelling large segments of my beefy ignorance.

I had read somewhere online that an acidic marinade used for longer than a day can make the meat mushy. Can I also ask you folks if this is correct? I thought a friend had told me before that he marinaded flank steak for several days to tenderize, but I could be misremembering.

The local QFC has cross rib roast on sale for $2.99/pound this week so I'll probably give this one a try next. I see that many folks give this a slow cook typically but I'll probably give it a go in the pressure cooker as well. I just love how it leaves the vegetables bursting with flavor. Or is this just completely inappropriate method for rib roast?

Finally, I am confused as to whether it is best to attain cooking pressure on high heat to do so as quickly as possible, or is it best to use medium high and let it take awhile. I've found with bean stews that I can sometimes get a bit on the burnt side on the bottom when ramping up on high, so I'm guessing maybe medium-high is best. I seem need to keep my stove at about 70% power to maintain pressure, so maybe I could use like 80% to ramp up.

It sounds like you had both the time and temperature right the first time ... 45 minutes of cooking got the meat up over the 180ºF mark for about twice the time of the second roast - 20 minutes which only got it up to 160ºF, below the melting point of the connective tissues (and you didn't say anything about adding vegetables and cooking for any additional time after the initial 20-minutes cooking time so I'm guess the cooking stopped at 20 minutes?).

You are correct, the second attempt was just one bout of cooking for 20 minutes or so. I assumed with the super high temp from the first attempt that I should go much slower, so I just threw carrots in from the very beginning instead of bothering to release the pressure and add them partway through. Skipped the potatoes because I wasn't sure they would go as well with the red wine based liquids.

Thanks!
Adrian

 

[Andy M.]

...I had read somewhere online that an acidic marinade used for longer than a day can make the meat mushy. Can I also ask you folks if this is correct? I thought a friend had told me before that he marinaded flank steak for several days to tenderize, but I could be misremembering.

The local QFC has cross rib roast on sale for $2.99/pound this week so I'll probably give this one a try next. I see that many folks give this a slow cook typically but I'll probably give it a go in the pressure cooker as well. I just love how it leaves the vegetables bursting with flavor. Or is this just completely inappropriate method for rib roast?

Finally, I am confused as to whether it is best to attain cooking pressure on high heat to do so as quickly as possible, or is it best to use medium high and let it take awhile. I've found with bean stews that I can sometimes get a bit on the burnt side on the bottom when ramping up on high, so I'm guessing maybe medium-high is best. I seem need to keep my stove at about 70% power to maintain pressure, so maybe I could use like 80% to ramp up...

Marinades are usually acidic and DO NOT tenderize the meat. Prolonged exposure to an acidic environment will make the meat mushy. How long that takes depends on the meat and the amount of acid in the marinade.

Typically, you qould borwn the roast before pressurizing and cooking. I would get up to pressure fairly fast.

I don't jnow what a cross rib roast is so I cannot comment.

 

[ahains]

Whoops, looks like I should have searched this very forum for cross rib roast and pressure cookers:
http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/f48/how-do-you-cook-a-cross-rib-roast-18912.html

Sounds like it is a good idea

 

[ahains]

Marinades are usually acidic and DO NOT tenderize the meat. Prolonged exposure to an acidic environment will make the meat mushy. How long that takes depends on the meat and the amount of acid in the marinade.

If this is correct, it would seem this is one of the wide spread urban myths. Even the wikipedia page states states that marinades tenderize. Are you certain this is not the case?

 

[Andy M.]

I am certain.

Read this article on the subject for the facts.

 

[Corey123]

Aging will improve (concentrate) flavor- but when dealing with "cheaper" cuts of beef (both the grade and where on the animal it comes from) it has no tenderizing affect on the connective tissue ... which is what makes the meat tough. Remember, Alto was dry aging a Prime grade cut of tender meat - not one with relatively little inter-muscular fat (marbling) and loaded with connective tissue.

As Corey noted - this is not a cut of meat that can be dry roasted - it has to be cooked with a wet method (braising or stewing - the pressure cooker would solve that problem) and as Andy noted - it's also a matter of time and temperature ... connective tissue doesn't begin to break down (melt) until about 180ºF ... and then it needs a little time to do that, it's not an instant melt.

It sounds like you had both the time and temperature right the first time ... 45 minutes of cooking got the meat up over the 180ºF mark for about twice the time of the second roast - 20 minutes which only got it up to 160ºF, below the melting point of the connective tissues (and you didn't say anything about adding vegetables and cooking for any additional time after the initial 20-minutes cooking time so I'm guess the cooking stopped at 20 minutes?).

Thanks, Mike!

Yeah, I forgot to mention that in order to save that roast which was like a piece of leather or a side of Godzilla , I had to make some onion gravy, slice the meat in thin slices and add it to the gravy.

Then I let it cook slowly for about an hour. It became tender after some "doctoring up".

Basically and truthfully, this cut has to be babysat treated and cooked as you would a pot roast - nice and slow. It's the only way that you can methodically break down and melt those extremly tough fibers and connective tissue.

Try it that way, and you'lll be quite surprised! You won't feel like you're eating something from Jurassic Park!!

 

[ahains]

Attempt number 3.
Cooked for 40 minutes under pressure, then released pressure to add veggies, brought back up to pressure and cooked another 5 minutes.

Result: the exterior quarter inch or so was perfect - falling apart and delicious. The interior of the meat was very flavorful and delicious, but I still needed a knife to cut it.

Given that the exterior was perfect, I feel that it must be possible to get that consistency throughout. I'm thinking about trying to cut the roast into maybe 3/4" thick slices before cooking next time. Any thoughts on pros/cons of this approach?

Thanks!

 

[Andy M.]

Don't slice it, cook it longer. A 4 pound pot roast can take 3 hours to cook on the stovetop. If a pressure cooker cooks foods in one third the time, you should expect to cook the roast for an hour.

Meats always cook form the outside in whether they are roasted, braised or pressure cooked, so just cook it longer.

 

[ahains]

Don't slice it, cook it longer. A 4 pound pot roast can take 3 hours to cook on the stovetop. If a pressure cooker cooks foods in one third the time, you should expect to cook the roast for an hour.

Meats always cook form the outside in whether they are roasted, braised or pressure cooked, so just cook it longer.

I see, I wasn't sure if I was in danger of overcooking the meat so the slicing thought was just to avoid that potential pitfall. The descriptions I have read seem to suggest that the proteins will coil up tightly and squeeze out moisture if overcooked. I'm not sure I can imagine it actually drying out in the pressurized steam environment of the pressure cooker, so I don't know what the consequence would be of overcooking it. If that is even possible.

Can you tell me what the consequences would be of slicing it before cooking?

I would like to give it another attempt when having some friends over next weekend, but I don't know if I'll have another practice attempt first so any extra advice is appreciated

 

[Andy M.]

Slicing the meat before cooking will result in the meat's cooking in less time and possibly getting to the point of shredding. The slices would probably fall apart when you try to take them out of the pot.

 

[Corey123]

Usually, this cut or a chuck pot roast will shred or chunk when done because it needs to cook so lng to get tender. Same thing with a pork shoulder.

I re-did this cut sometime later, but first, I browned and seared it in the same pot in which it was braised. Miraculously, that time, I was able to slice it. In any case, it's always tender and is very easy to chew.

In short, it must be cooked just as you would cook a regular pot roast - long and slow.

 

[ahains]

Thanks again for the suggestions. I know I want to stick with the pressure cooker rather than the crock pot because the vegetable flavors from the PC are just to wonderful to give up. I don't mind cooking it for quite awhile, but I also don't see any obvious reason to avoid some preslicing to give me thinner cuts of meat. Therefore my game plan for the next attempt is to slice into large pieces not more than perhaps 1.5" at their thickest, and cook under pressure for an hour. If that is successful in giving me a tender result that doesn't seem overcooked in anyway, then I will probably followup with a subsequent trial of leaving the meat uncooked and just cook it for longer still (maybe 1.5 hours).

I love tasty things, engineering/experimenting, and saving money, so this is a lot of fun for me

 

[kitchenelf]

I tend to cook my pot roasts in the pressure cooker for 1 1/2 - 2 hours, depending on the size. You won't overcook the meat - it will shrink but it will be VERY tender. LOW and slow is the term you want to remember but that's mostly for another cooking method. I LOVE my pressure cooker and use it a couple times a week. You can take a frozen roast/chicken/whatever and be eating it roughly 2 hours later.