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Old 12-28-2006, 09:42 PM   #41
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I could do without a dishwasher but then my wife would leave me. We have a Meile that is incredible! I might knock the pork chop bones off the plates but that is mostly the extent of . Every week or so I clean the filter in the bottom- which I would not need if I did like all those folks that think they have to wash them before the machine. The machine heats its own water [it is hooked to our cold water not the hot].

I do all my pans and such by hand pretty much as I finish a task with them, so the machine is for plates glasses and such.

If I were doing my next kitchen i would consider two things.

First, mounting the machine at 24 inches [60cm] above the floor would make it far easier to use.

Secondly, I would like to have two dishwashers. One for clean storage and one for needing washing. I hate emptying the dang machine.

We do live without them when we go camping or boating so I know it can be done however unwillingly.
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Old 12-29-2006, 06:30 AM   #42
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Thanks again everyone for your views and suggestions, also on the proper usage of the dishwashers. I read every single one of them with great interest and gave us much to consider about. I took whole bunch of notes, it won't be another few months at least before we make the final decision, so we will continue on with our research with all the tips in our mind. Thanks, and happy new year and happy dishwashing to everyone!!
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Old 12-29-2006, 06:42 AM   #43
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You're welcome!!

I love my machine! The dishes come out much cleaner and much more germ-free than being washed by hand.
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Old 12-29-2006, 07:09 AM   #44
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Stick with a liquid dish soap and you won't have an etching problem. I have used mine now for 13 years same dish washer, same glasses, nothing but liquid from the start, and all my glassware goes into it. Yes I have a set of glasses that are 13 years old. I don't like smudges or towel lint or all the viruses that go around.

I almost forgot to add that these are glasses that I use every day
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:17 AM   #45
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I'll add my "well, yes and no" vote to the below!

Yes, overall I think dishwashers are worth having. They don't, mind you, mean you'll never have a messy kitchen or be twiddling your thumbs with lack of work. The dishes do need a bit of tending-to prior to being washed by the dishwasher, and surprisingly enough, a dishwasher full even of clean dishes needing putting away can sometimes look like a chore you'd rather avoid!

However, I've had a dishwasher ever since we had children and wouldn't choose to be without one now.

Urmaniac, for the time being at least you're without children (edited to say I think I may be wrong about this perhaps?). When it's just two people, the usefulness of a dishwasher's negligible, for the reason that's already been mentioned below: that you have to wait for it to be full to run it. During a hot Italian summer, that pretty much means it would get smelly, for one (although rinsing/brushing dishes a bit before loading them somewhat reduces the smell) and also that you would have to own quite a few dishes to get through the couple of days which would pass before you ran the dishwasher.

For that reason, our first dishwasher was a 45-cm model -- which you probably realize is a common option in European appliances. That dishwasher was still running strong when we un-installed it to install its replacement -- a full-size (60-cm) built-in under-the-counter model -- when we remodeled, so it's patiently sitting in the basement awaiting being reborn, in a child's college apartment, a cottage, whatever.

The "well, no" part of my comment has to do with the fact that when my dishwasher might be the most needed -- I don't use it, namely, like this coming Sunday, when we have large parties which involve the good china and crystal. They all get hand-washed prior to the party and hand-washed after the party. The dishwasher, however, DOES get used as a storage space for the same dishes -- unwashed -- to clear up counter space during the party. Wouldn't really suggest you buy it just for that, but it does come in handy!

Whether dishes and glasses wear out in the dishwasher or not has to do with their quality (which, no, doesn't necessarily translate to their cost!). While I admit that my very nice Villeroy everyday mugs have been washed thousands of times and show not the least bit of wear, I also have some favorite super-cheapies that have been washed likewise and are still doing well. Inversely, I have expensive and cheap stuff that's fared very poorly. You really just don't know until you've tried.

Crystal should never be washed in a dishwasher because it's softer than glass and thus is particularly prone to hazing because dishwasher detergent is -- necessarily -- more caustic than hand-dishwashing detergent. Similarly china with metallic or hand-painted elements shouldn't be washed in the dishwasher. Aluminum items will darken, but if that doesn't bother you, go for it. Stainless steel washes BRILLIANTLY, as does any good porcelain. Soft plastic can warp, and hard plastic will usually get hazy.

As for brand: both my dishwashers, like my clothes washer, are Miele. I recommend them without reservation for several reasons, one of which is my own experience -- they've all been run daily for years and years and I have never needed to replace a part or call upon service. Ever.

Secondly, our family company sells and services hospital equipment, including washers, for a living. Something that presumably most people don't know is that Miele's industrial washers are where Miele got their start and made their name. Many of the components for the domestic washers are the same as those used in the industrial washers for manufacturing economy, and I assure you, the quality of their washers is second to none in Europe. In my experience this does NOT apply to all of their appliances, on which they trade on their good name alone, but that's another story. Regarding washers per se, however, I wouldn't recommend you buy anything but Miele, even though they are, admitedly, about 20% more expensive than their competitors like Seimens.

When we went shopping for our first washer, we looked at the Miele, the Seimens, and the Bosch. Only the Miele has a 3rd rack for the forks and knives, BTW, rather than a basket -- you'll either love it or find it a hassle. I love it.

What I noticed on my own was the difference in feel of the plastic on the racks -- the Miele simply felt and looked better quality, even though neither Seimens nor Bosch are considered "slumming it"!

My husband, however, who's the more knowledgable of the two of us (in this issue ), noticed something else and asked me if I'd caught on: he said, 'did you notice that both the Bosch and the Seimens had two door gaskets whereas the Miele had only one?' I said, 'well, uhhh, no. Why? What does that mean?' And he said: 'there's one reason and only one to put a second gasket on a door, and that's because you can't get it right with the first!' I bought that argument then and I've never regretted it.

My vote is obvious ... and now I'll stop these flying fingers!
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:35 AM   #46
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Wow, thanks Ayrton for your in depth review!! Miele products are readily available also here in Rome, so we will take extra closer look at them!! Yeah, even though there are just two of us in the house most of the time, we seem to produce rather exaggerated amount of dirty stuff, especially when Cris is taking the lead of cooking something... he likes to get his hand on everything in sight!! And some times I find myself going through some extra hassle trying to short cut on producing even more dirty utensils, bowls etc. while I am doing my prep.. and there are times I wish I could just grab whatever that serves me (a la Cris..) without dreading of the washup afterwards. Probably we will be running the dishwasher at least once a day if not more, considering our activity level in the kitchen!
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Old 12-29-2006, 12:58 PM   #47
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I would say go for getting the dishwasher. I have lived in apartments since I moved out and only one did not have a dishwasher. It was fine because it was my first place and I was used to doing the dishes by hand. Now that I have had one for three years, I would hate to not have one!! Seeing as how it is only the two of us, I run mine every other day or every three days, again, depending on how much baking/cooking I am doing. I throw my pots and pans in there about once a month to sanatize them. Otherwise, I wash mine by hand. They also have an addative that you can use to prevent etching but I think that it does have to do with the hard water. Best of luck to yo and PLEASE let us know your decision!!!
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Old 12-30-2006, 02:35 AM   #48
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I am really happy to read your experience Ayrton. We to have Meile in both laundry and dishwash but I never knew how smart my wife was when she chose them.

Something I was told by the guy who sold us our appliances over the years that we have found to be true is that eching is caused for the most part by too much dishwashing detergent. We have for several years used about half what is called for and all our eched glasses of old have not re-occured. Our dishes are also clean.

The brand of washer stuff matters but doesn't seem to affect the eching as much as quanity, By matters, I mean that what works best in Seattle isn't what works best at our parents in Missouri.
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Old 12-30-2006, 02:39 AM   #49
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remember, the people that recommend how much soap to use (hair, dish, clothes, etc.) are in the business of selling soap.
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Old 12-30-2006, 04:53 AM   #50
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Whether dishes and glasses wear out in the dishwasher or not has to do with their quality (which, no, doesn't necessarily translate to their cost!). While I admit that my very nice Villeroy everyday mugs have been washed thousands of times and show not the least bit of wear, I also have some favorite super-cheapies that have been washed likewise and are still doing well. Inversely, I have expensive and cheap stuff that's fared very poorly. You really just don't know until you've tried.

You can determine if your china will do OK in the dishwasher--if the design "decal" is UNDER a glaze, it will be OK. If not (as in much fine antique china such as Sevres and Limoges, for example) it will eventually be worn off by the detergent. I have Cuthbertson Christmas china that is old before they put the tree decal under the glaze and it is faded--I hand wash it now, or cut 'way 'way down on the detergent at Christmas.

As for the reference to Miele making industrial washers before home types, the same is true of KitchenAid in the US. Hobart dishwashers are still the norm for industrial kitchens--this is the original KA company. KA home products have been sold and the stoves and fridges are Whirlpool products, but dishwashers and mixers are still made by the KA division.
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