"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > General Cooking Information > Cookware and Accessories > Appliances
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-22-2012, 08:41 PM   #11
Head Chef
 
GLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Near Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,216
What he's saying reflects a lot of what I felt when I switched to gas. I suspect electric burners transfer heat to the bottom of a good pot more efficiently than gas burners do. That seems reasonable, because the whole electric burner is in direct contact with the pot, and gas has to heat essentially by radiation, and a fair amount of heat flows out to the sides. More heat is reflected downward.

My impression is that my old electric range boiled an equal amount of water more quickly. A Calrod's heating coil very efficiently heats the sleeve, and that's in direct contact with the cookware bottom. That's putting the water very close to the "fire," in terms of heat transfer.

I wouldn't go back to electric. The fine control and instant response with gas is very nice. Subjectively, it is also a more primal experience to cook over flame. But I recognize that if I want lots of gas heat, I need to go to a range that requires a 1-inch gas feed.
__________________

__________________
"Kitchen duty is awarded only to those of manifest excellence..." - The Master, Dogen
GLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2012, 09:16 PM   #12
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 30
First, thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response.

"The boiling point is that point at which the liquid becomes a vapor, which is the temperature at which the vapor pressure equals environmental pressure... So both burners boil water... And that it no aid to cooking by immersion...."

Point taken, boiling is boiling. But one thing with what I'm calling a "mild boil" is when I put in a pound of pasta, for instance, the water takes quite a while to bring back to a boil. With the high-power burner it reboils much more quickly. But it's the smaller, back burner that I want for pasta making so I can use the front one for whatever is to accompany it.

"Electric ranges typically have a main burner rated at 2500 watts. Now that's less than 9,000 BTU by plain calculation...."

My previous range was electric, and the 2500 watt burner boiled water, and reboiled after adding a large amount of pasta. So this is one reason why having a gas burner listed at 13,500 btu that seems so weak in comparison is frustrating.

"... if you put a big pot (to reduce other factors) with 8.5 quarts of 65F water on a burner and boil it at or near sea level in 16 minutes, you experienced the effect of an honest 12,000 BTU conversion, however it came about. If it takes 22 minutes, you got 9,000 BTU.

Wow, 16 minutes for more than 2 gallons. It took the 13.5K burner half an hour to boil a gallon. I can't imagine how long to boil 2.

I've started to wonder if it isn't the heat output that's the problem, but the stove design (just guessing, and this is the first gas range I've had, and it's certainly not a high end unit). The grates seem to be very high off the flame, with the exception of the largest burner. Maybe that's intended, but only the flame on the largest burner ever comes very close to the bottom of the pot. Seems like a lot of wasted heat. The side and back panel of the range and the far end of the burner grate get very hot. If the flame were closer to the grate (and therefore the pot), seems to me there would be less waste. Can't think of how to remedy that, though.


Steve
__________________

__________________
riversurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2012, 09:23 PM   #13
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 30
I start covered, but leave uncovered for cooking pasta or potatoes. And maybe you're right that I'm expecting too much, but having never had a gas range, and having read up quite a bit, I am disappointed with this one aspect of the range. There is a 17.5K burner and it does the job like a champ. But I'm used to having a back burner for boiling water while I do other stuff on the more accessible and roomier front burner.

The stove is only a few months old and still warrantied, but of course I have to rely on an authorized repair shop, and if they don't find anything wrong with the range, then I'll be the one footing the bill.

Thank you

Steve


[
__________________
riversurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2012, 09:29 PM   #14
Master Chef
 
FrankZ's Avatar
Site Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 9,633
Having looked at a lot of stove over the last couple years it seems that stove makers think I want to boil the water on the front corner.. I would prefer the jet drive in the back..
__________________
"First you start with a pound of bologna..."
-My Grandmother on how to make ham salad.
FrankZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2012, 10:47 PM   #15
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 30
Here here. You read my mind.
__________________
riversurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2012, 11:19 PM   #16
Chef Extraordinaire
 
taxlady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: near Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 18,894
Send a message via Skype™ to taxlady
Why don't they do it like my electric range - one big and one small burner in front, one big and one small burner in back?
__________________
May you live as long as you wish and love as long as you live.
Robert A. Heinlein
taxlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 11:34 AM   #17
Head Chef
 
GLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Near Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by riversurf View Post
I've started to wonder if it isn't the heat output that's the problem, but the stove design (just guessing, and this is the first gas range I've had, and it's certainly not a high end unit). The grates seem to be very high off the flame, with the exception of the largest burner. Maybe that's intended, but only the flame on the largest burner ever comes very close to the bottom of the pot. Seems like a lot of wasted heat. The side and back panel of the range and the far end of the burner grate get very hot. If the flame were closer to the grate (and therefore the pot), seems to me there would be less waste. Can't think of how to remedy that, though.
It's really a matter of heat transfer, transferring heat to the bottom surface of the cooking vessel. The nature of a bag burner is that it is not very efficient at heat transfer. With electric, it's heat source in contact with pot. The nature of the heat source is very different with gas. Flame heat is complex, but at the tip of a methane flame, the temperature is about 320C, and temperature drops rapidly above that. Entire learned books are written on the transfer of heat by flame impinging on a solid surface. Obviously, there are many factors. Height above flame, reflectivity of the surface, heat containment, etc. And for our purposes, we want to know about efficiency of heat transfer from the bottom to the inside surface.

Electric is simpler. We worry pretty much only about the material of the surface and how well it involves itself in heat transfer, which is almost exclusively by conduction.

A gar range maker has a hard decision about grate height. Do we go low for more exposure to the hotter flame, or higher and have more diffuse heating without a hot ring. Electric doesn't call for that decision with the almost continuous burner surface. His decision gets easier when he realizes he just can't afford a real high capacity burner and has to trade off a bunch of holes up close for fewer holes set lower. There are technical and safety reasons for fewer, larger holes.

Compare this commercial gas range burner to your home range burner.



No more efficient, but LOTS more fire over more area. Maybe 28,000 to 35,000 BTU, requiring a large gas line. It's a brute force solution to the need for high heat.

It's practically easier to get big direct heat out of an electric device. A home range is fed by heavy wiring, equaled only by other electric heating device circuits. When home electricity was new, electric burners were pretty wimpy. They couldn't be more, because homes had electric supplies intended for very small loads, perhaps one light bulb in each room. Electric ranges have grown in power as residential supplies became heavier. But the 1/2-inch gas line was good enough for all gas equipment that was added. But it limited the size of range burners, which always had to consider that you might operate all burners and the over at the same time.

I accept the low heat output of home gas ranges. I really only notice it when heating a large mass, like a pot of water. But I'm at home and have the time. There's no rush, or shouldn't be. And I can always begin heating the water earlier and start with as hot as my water heater can make it (no kids, so it's cranked up). If I want quick recovery after dumping pasta into water, I will have to begin with a larger mass of water (most home cooks use too little) so the temperature won't drop much and wait for it to boil. Were I determined to boil water more quickly, even if it meant giving up the other gas advantages, I'd go electric. I read a lot before going to gas. I considered a commercial range, but decided the cost, amount of gas usage, and the construction necessary to meet code wasn't justified.
__________________
"Kitchen duty is awarded only to those of manifest excellence..." - The Master, Dogen
GLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 12:08 PM   #18
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 30
All of this information (and I thank all the respondents) would all be more of a relief to me if I could get the water to a rolling boil on that back burner after I remove the lid. It just doesn't, no matter how long I leave the water on, It just simmers (not boils) away, with a few bubbles here and there, and a simmer is Not the same as a boil, especially if you want that water movement to toss the pasta (or whatever) around while cooking

The side of the the stove also gets so hot that it can't be touched, as does part of the back panel, making me wonder if this is just a poorly designed stove. The flames seem kind of far from the pot bottom except on the largest burner.

I'm sure this seems like a trivial problem to some who might be reading this, but to have a stove that doesn't boil water properly on a burner that, numerically, should do the trick easily, is a huge disappointment considering how much it cost.

As I mentioned, Frigidaire is useless in this so far. They require me to hire a "certified" repair shop, who is likely to charge me if they don't find a "manufacturer's defect"
__________________
riversurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 02:01 PM   #19
Certified Pretend Chef
 
Andy M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 41,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by riversurf View Post
All of this information (and I thank all the respondents) would all be more of a relief to me if I could get the water to a rolling boil on that back burner after I remove the lid. It just doesn't, no matter how long I leave the water on, It just simmers (not boils) away, with a few bubbles here and there, and a simmer is Not the same as a boil, especially if you want that water movement to toss the pasta (or whatever) around while cooking

The side of the the stove also gets so hot that it can't be touched, as does part of the back panel, making me wonder if this is just a poorly designed stove. The flames seem kind of far from the pot bottom except on the largest burner.

I'm sure this seems like a trivial problem to some who might be reading this, but to have a stove that doesn't boil water properly on a burner that, numerically, should do the trick easily, is a huge disappointment considering how much it cost.

As I mentioned, Frigidaire is useless in this so far. They require me to hire a "certified" repair shop, who is likely to charge me if they don't find a "manufacturer's defect"
I don't think it's minor. If the burner can't boil water and the side of the stove gets that hot when a stove top burner is burning, there is a significant problem.

I think you should definitely call for service. I'd have safety concerns.
__________________
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan
Andy M. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 02:07 PM   #20
Executive Chef
 
Rocklobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ottawa Valley, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,794
Does the whole top of the range lift up on hinges attached at the back for cleaning. If so, has it been put back down as far as it is supposed to go?
__________________

__________________
Rocklobster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.