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Old 04-03-2009, 03:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike in brooklyn View Post
Thanks for the correction Buzz - do you use any sharpening aids
like DMT which will allign the knife to the blade at an exact angle.

I would also like to hear your opinion of diamond stones -
I currently use a normal stone with 3 grades of finer to
coarse grit.
I used to use the magic marker trick as can be seen in the video at Edge Pro, Inc. but now I am much more loose. With enough experience under my belt I can sense the bevel, that is, there is a certain feel when the bevel is on the stone. There is also sound associated with the bevel relative to the stone.

Beyond that, lay the blade on the stone with a finger on the edge. You can feel a gap. Raise the spine until the knife edge and the stone meet. That's the bevel angle.

Changing the angle is another ball game. If I want to be exact I use my EdgePro for the initial bevel. Otherwise, when thinning a blade to form a new secondary bevel I lower the spine to no angle in particular and start removing metal. It's a little rough at first but eventually the bevel flattens out so moving up to the finer grits becomes an easy task. When forming and polishing a secondary bevel you can ignore the burr if you will be adding a primary bevel.

I have two diamond stones, a DMT Diasharp XXC and a C. I used to use the XXC for making new bevels but now use a Naniwa 150 Omura. Presently I use both the DMT's for flattening my other stones and man are they ever good at their job.

No problem using a series of diamond stones for sharpening. Lots of people do it that way and the results are excellent. In addition, they don't have to be presoaked and they don't dish. I don't have the reference but somewhere out there is a youtube video of a guy going through a series of preangled diamond stones and I think he carved a hair strand at the end. Preangling is having the stone at a set angle and keeping the blade parallel to Mother Earth when sharpening. The picture is a setup I use on occasion using a rubber tire chock and a simple inclinometer to set the angle. If you have an iPnone, the free DualLevel app will do the same thing.

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Old 04-04-2009, 02:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Be sure and raise a full length burr and then remove it before going to the next finer stone.
Buzz
thanks so much for the video and information, Buzz. so... i'm extremely embarrassed and humbled to admit that i'm rather fuzzy on what a burr is. is that comparable to the wood shavings from planing? is there a point where you're taking off too much or is there a certain amount or feel/sound that i can only attain a zen idea of from grinding down a few crappy knives?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
I used to use the magic marker trick...
what's the magic marker trick and is that advisable for a newbie or would this be a distraction and should i just focus more on keeping a consistent angle like you said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
When forming and polishing a secondary bevel you can ignore the burr if you will be adding a primary bevel.
i was looking on this other site and it mentioned a "relief" edge/bevel (also, when people say edge, they are referring to the bevel, right, instead of just the tip edge?). is that what you mean by the secondary bevel as they refer to the actual cutting bevel as the secondary and the non-cutting bevel as the relief? which confuses me as shouldn't the cutting bevel be referred to as primary? what's the purpose of having a non-cutting bevel?

thanks again, Buzz, for your advice and patience as i pepper you with mind-numbing questions that you've probably answered myriad times before. and what a great idea, angling the stone itself instead of trying to approximate with the wobbly grinding hand. though, i have neither an inclinometer nor an iPhone so guess i'll just have to feel it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoodleIncident View Post
ive only been hand sharpening for like a month...and ive only done 3 knives, so im still very much a newbie....i do feel that i've learned alot in these few weeks, mostly because i had read a TON...actually seeing/feeling/hearing the process makes it alot more clear....now, that isn't to say im good at it yet - im not terrible, but certainly not "good" yet....my troubles so far have been creating and detecting a burr (either im not properly grinding one, or i cant feel that i already have), and holding a consistent angle (especially around the tip, which is tough)....the knives ive done so far have been cheap, and very dull, so its going to be interesting to see what happens when i try a good knife that is still semi sharp (going to take my parer to the stones this weekend)
TheNoodleIncident, you definitely know more than i do and the fact that you've read up on a ton of this stuff and are getting to the point where you are starting to have a "sense" of knife sharpening, that's what i'm aspiring to. greatly appreciate any feedback from you since you'd know the trepidation that a newbie like myself would feel...or when i ask a really stupid question. there's just so much stuff out there and some of the information seems to contradict each other so it's nice to have a forum of knowledgeable, kind folks to help a lost soul. good luck on sharpening your parer.
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Old 04-04-2009, 10:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbirdpies View Post
thanks so much for the video and information, Buzz. so... i'm extremely embarrassed and humbled to admit that i'm rather fuzzy on what a burr is. is that comparable to the wood shavings from planing? is there a point where you're taking off too much or is there a certain amount or feel/sound that i can only attain a zen idea of from grinding down a few crappy knives?
When the two bevels meet during sharpening a piece of metal sticks out from the very edge and leans away from the side you just ground. Run a finger down the side of the blade to the edge and it will feel smooth on the newly ground side and "catchy" on the opposite side. You can't miss it. If you don't feel anything you have not yet reached the edge and more grinding is required.



Checking for a burr:





Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbirdpies View Post
what's the magic marker trick and is that advisable for a newbie or would this be a distraction and should i just focus more on keeping a consistent angle like you said?
The magic marker trick is on the referenced EdgePro video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbirdpies View Post
i was looking on this other site and it mentioned a "relief" edge/bevel (also, when people say edge, they are referring to the bevel, right, instead of just the tip edge?). is that what you mean by the secondary bevel as they refer to the actual cutting bevel as the secondary and the non-cutting bevel as the relief? which confuses me as shouldn't the cutting bevel be referred to as primary? what's the purpose of having a non-cutting bevel?
The terminology can be confusing. The bevel leading to the cutting edge itself is the primary bevel. You might also see it called micro bevel. The thinned part of the blade above the primary bevel is the relief bevel or secondary bevel.

Angle AB is the secondary bevel and angle CD is the primary bevel leading to the cutting edge.

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Old 04-06-2009, 11:14 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by blackbirdpies View Post
TheNoodleIncident, you definitely know more than i do and the fact that you've read up on a ton of this stuff and are getting to the point where you are starting to have a "sense" of knife sharpening, that's what i'm aspiring to. greatly appreciate any feedback from you since you'd know the trepidation that a newbie like myself would feel...or when i ask a really stupid question. there's just so much stuff out there and some of the information seems to contradict each other so it's nice to have a forum of knowledgeable, kind folks to help a lost soul. good luck on sharpening your parer.
i felt the same way when i first started - and i still do! everytime i learn something, i discover 10 more things that i need to learn...this is partially due to the fact that i did most of my reading on forums where the focus was sharpening and knives (as opposed to this site, which is more cooking focused), and those guys will give you OCD in no time....and i don't mean that in a bad way, because those guys are also the best sources of info out there! they take it to a whole new level (i hang out here because i like to feel smart )

someone recently said that sharpening is nothing more than rubbing a knife on a rock, and it's been done since cavemen were around, so don't make such a big deal over it....now, of course, once you get into it, you can make it much more complicated, but the basic principle is really that simple....people kept saying that i should just try it, and see that it isn't too hard....from my first few sharpenings, ive made knives that are not only usable, but better than most knives you find in other people's homes....so i could prob stay at this level of competence for the rest of my life, and still be ahead of most.....but, thanks to my new found OCD (thanks FF and KF!), i want to get good enough at it to develop the "scary sharp" edge i keep hearing about (question for people who ARE that competent - are those edges possible on the king 1k/6k?)

ive also found that info tends to contradict itself - i think this is because there is no perfect method of sharpening, and everyone has their own way...the trick is to step back, and realize that everyone is following the same basic formula (see buzz's 4 step process), but just implementing it in slightly different ways....

personally, i would still love to sit down with someone who really knows what they are doing and just watch them work...im sure im making little mistakes, that i dont even realize im doing

regarding the parer, it went pretty well - it is def sharper than it was, and i didnt ruin or scratch it up....i can tell that the bevel is a bit uneven, especially around the tip...someone also said that small knives are hard to sharpen....more experience! thanks for asking
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoodleIncident View Post

personally, i would still love to sit down with someone who really knows what they are doing and just watch them work...im sure im making little mistakes, that i dont even realize im doing

regarding the parer, it went pretty well - it is def sharper than it was, and i didnt ruin or scratch it up....i can tell that the bevel is a bit uneven, especially around the tip...someone also said that small knives are hard to sharpen....more experience! thanks for asking
Once you learn the theory and have seen a video or two it's time to have at it with your practice knives. Those uneven bevels get better with each knife you sharpen. The first few knives you sharpen may not be the prettiest on the block but they will cut and you will be on your way.

Buzz
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:12 PM   #16
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yeah, i think im happy with the results, even though it could be better....im more relieved to know that i can sharpen my good knives, without ruining them....my next knife will be my good santoku....i think the geometry will make this easier to sharpen than the chef (am i allowed to call the shun a gyuto? haha...)....plus, the chef is my favorite, so im saving it for last
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by TheNoodleIncident View Post
yeah, i think im happy with the results, even though it could be better....im more relieved to know that i can sharpen my good knives, without ruining them....my next knife will be my good santoku....i think the geometry will make this easier to sharpen than the chef (am i allowed to call the shun a gyuto? haha...)....plus, the chef is my favorite, so im saving it for last
There is nothing wrong with Shuns. They may be downplayed because they are available everywhere. So? VG-10 is excellent steel and Shun geometry is fine, not the thickest, not the thinnest. I think the Classic line is excellent although I'm not so hot on the Alton's Angle or Ken Onion lines - too gimmicky for me.

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Old 04-08-2009, 01:52 PM   #18
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agreed! i have only tried the classic line, but the only other line i would be really interested in would be the elite.

i must be hanging out at FF and KF too much because i feel the need to defend my knives
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:04 PM   #19
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agreed! i have only tried the classic line, but the only other line i would be really interested in would be the elite.

i must be hanging out at FF and KF too much because i feel the need to defend my knives
You'll know when you've spent too much time at FF & KF when you can answer any question asked here in your sleep.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:07 AM   #20
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thanks TheNoodleIncident & Buzz. it was fun reading your discourse. like listening to shifu (or in my native tongue Sư phụ) & student.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoodleIncident View Post
from my first few sharpenings, ive made knives that are not only usable, but better than most knives you find in other people's homes
that's what i like to hear: success...or at least to my very newbie point of view that counts as success. to you, it's probably just the starting point.

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The magic marker trick is on the referenced EdgePro video.
oops! i think i clicked on your link which went to the home site and should have clicked just a little bit further to go to the video. thank you very much for clarifying the terminology.
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