What knives are the best?

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The part about the folding steel or doing it so well, makes a knife with good retention, in general isn't true.

The steel in Japanese knives is harder then those typically found in European knives. Harder means brittle. A hard knife, made out of steel or ceramic will chip. To compensate makers will sandwich or clad the hard steel, between soft steel. The edge can still chip, but the knife won't break, like a ceramic.

Depending on the properties knife makers value, will effect their choice of steel and how they work with it. Shun values a sharp knife that will hold its edge a long time.

Knives that have good wear resistance, in general are more difficult to sharpen. Additionally the cladding on a Shun is very soft and will easily scratch.


The Edge Pro is a nice system, if you have a number of knives to sharpen. If you only have the Shun, then sending it out, makes more sense. Just make sure whoever you send the knife to, is familiar with Japanese steel and Shuns.

Jay
It certainly scratches easily. Particularly their SG0409 'Elite' 6" utility knife.
 
"Depending on the properties knife makers value, will effect their choice of steel and how they work with it. Shun values a sharp knife that will hold its edge a long time. "

That would be my criteria for any knife steel. There is the scratching issue on some of the exterior steels, but all in all, sharpness and edge retention are what knife steels are all about.
 
That criticism does apply to most Euro style knives, that's true- and they should be avoided if you know what you're doing. Well, my normal recommendation it to get a Japanese knife, that's wafer thin with no bolster!:ROFLMAO: But until you've seen that knife I don't thing you really "get" just how fat the handle is. All "traditional" Euro-style knives with a bolster are fatally flawed re sharpening the 1/4" in front of the bolster. But the Sanellis (unless the newer ones are different) it's almost impossible to the last 1/2" of the heel. We're talking almost 1" thick vs the 1/4" that you can't effectively sharpen on a traditional German boat anchor. Obviously you're better off letting the Germans build your car and the Japanese build your knives. But if you have to cut corners you can at least get the best of an inferior breed.:LOL: If you're not willing to get serious than a Forschner Fibrox might be your best bet.:)

If you're a little bit more serious than most, but don't want to spend enough to get a Japanese knife, get a Sab. But be advised that many companies use the name...

Oh noes Rob and I butt heads agains.

Firstly the bolster.
The bolster provides longitudinal stability to the blade.
So the choice is between a blade that snaps easily and a blade that you can't sharpen the last 1/4 inch.
Like forging, the benefit of having a bolster have only really been diminished in the last 20 years with improved steel making processes. It doesn't make forging or bolsters redundant merely less important.

Secondly blade thinness.
European CS knives are as thin as most SS J-knives and much thinner than Japanese CS knives.
[aside: Now that I am exclusively using CS knives I am finding that I am sharpening far less frequently than when using SS knives. This is counter intuitive since CS knives are softer, the reason is that CS knives respond so well to honing that I need to put them on the stones less often].
 
I can't even imagine how you'd bread a chef's knife back near the handle! I don't baton firewood with my knives, I just use 'em on food!:ROFLMAO: Nothing I do puts that kind of stress on the blade, as as far as I'm concerned if you do use that much force you're asking for trouble. In almost every case where I've seen a knife break it was at the tip, and occasionally at the heel. Tips will break if the knife falls point first, and I've seen people break the heel using their knife as a can opener. In the latter case a nice bolster may have saved the heel, but since a knife isn't made to open cans I don't really consider that a benefit. A coworker I used to work with did snap the blade off my Messermeister tourne knife right at the handle a few year ago. Claims he was just peeling an onion and it snapped. Hmmm...:rolleyes:

I've placed dial calipers on a lot of knife spines. Some of the very thinnest I've ever seen are the stamped blades of the Forschner Fibrox knives. But thickness of the spine doesn't really tell the true story; how well a knife cuts is more determined by the bevel angle and the thickness of the blade behind the edge. Although a truly thick spine can cause a knife to wedge, I've found cutting performance more affected by thinness of grind more than thinness of spine.
 
I supply and sharpen SG-2, VG-10 and ATS-34 blades for my wife's chopping (and chipping). Most of my favorite meat cutting knives are CS. For slashing bread dough and scoring pigskin I use a CPM-S30V blade.
 
Oh noes Rob and I butt heads agains.

Firstly the bolster.
The bolster provides longitudinal stability to the blade.
So the choice is between a blade that snaps easily and a blade that you can't sharpen the last 1/4 inch.

Blades can be strengthened and counter balanced without a bolster. Finger guards are not needed with a pinch grip.

Since a knife with a bolster cannot be fully sharpened, what is going to happen over time?

Like forging, the benefit of having a bolster have only really been diminished in the last 20 years with improved steel making processes. It doesn't make forging or bolsters redundant merely less important.

The steels that have been developed over the last 50 to 75 years has allowed makers to develop knives that take incredibly keen edges and hold that edge a long time.

To get the most out these steels, the makers need to know how to forge them. A large part of a maker's reputation is the ability to work with a particular steel.

While forging is more important then ever on high end knives. The bolster is being given up as a relic of the past.

Secondly blade thinness.
European CS knives are as thin as most SS J-knives and much thinner than Japanese CS knives.

Not all Japanese knives are thin. The ones intended for general purpose work, have more weight and size. They are still typically thinner then European style knives.

[aside: Now that I am exclusively using CS knives I am finding that I am sharpening far less frequently than when using SS knives. This is counter intuitive since CS knives are softer, the reason is that CS knives respond so well to honing that I need to put them on the stones less often].

Carbon steel is harder then stainless. One of the advantages of carbon is how easily it sharpens. Down side is that it reacts. Stainless steel is softer then carbon, that is why it needs to be sharpened more often.

The geometry of a knife, its profile, thickness, how it is ground from the spine to the edge, the type of bevel, determines how well, the knife will cut. Type of steel determines how long the edge will last.

Jay
 
FWIW the gap between carbon and stainless is getting narrower all the time. And of course some newer steels blur the lines, combining some of the virtues of each.
 
FWIW the gap between carbon and stainless is getting narrower all the time. And of course some newer steels blur the lines, combining some of the virtues of each.

While ingredients are important, in this case the types of steel, in the end, I think it is secondary to the skills of the knife maker working with their chosen steel. I am aware that you are referring to semi-stainless steel, that is used in your Carbonext knife. I would find it hard to believe that it can get anywhere near as sharp as a white steel #1 Furiwara. Jay
 
Among other steels. There used to be just carbon and mediocre stainless but that's far from the current state of things. I've never used the Fujiwara but from all accounts it's one of the better cheapo knives out there. Either I should pick one up or you should pick up some tool steels.:ROFLMAO: Then we can get to the bottom of it.:)
 
Among other steels. There used to be just carbon and mediocre stainless but that's far from the current state of things. I've never used the Fujiwara but from all accounts it's one of the better cheapo knives out there. Either I should pick one up or you should pick up some tool steels.:ROFLMAO: Then we can get to the bottom of it.:)
Since when is a $700.00, 270mm Gyuto, considered a cheapo knife?

Jay
 
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Since when is a $700.00, 270mm Gyuto, considered a cheapo knife?

Jay

Apologies, my friend- I didn't read carefully enough. In the US Fujiwara is well known for bargain-basement blue steel. In my mind I thought you meant the entry level stuff. Obviously they do make a really high end line, which I've not been lucky enough to use. I can't compare the white steel to any other knife as I'm too poor to buy one.

I guess I'd have to just say that if the true competition for the $150 CN is the $700 Fujiwara they must be doing something right!:ROFLMAO: Wish I could have the white #1 but I'd rather have 4 of the CNs...;)
 
I used to sell Sanelli knives in the shop and they are a really good knife and sharpen well, the handle is definitely more a commercial style but very comfortable. That is why we used to sell them as most people looking for domestic use knives tend to want the three rivet handle design. Victorinox is another great knife range with a fibrox handle, their paring knives are real winners.
 
Interesting thread. I remember watching a Japanese TV show, I cannot remember the name, showing high quality sword making. It started with two flat lengths of hard and soft steel laid together and edge fused. The steel was heated and twisted to form one layer. It was then hand pounded into shape. The finished polished product when held up to the light showed the reflections of both steels fused together. The end of the show, showed a variety of swords and knives with the same light reflections.

Japanese sword and knife making is a 2000 year guarded secret, therefore; only the beginning and twisting of the steel and end products were shown. I read in a few articles, the pounding and folding process is repeated many times. Some of the historical swords, the steel was pounded thin and folded up to 2000 times. The one characteristic of high quality of Japanese swords and knifes is the random light reflections when held up to a good light source.

If the product on the market is a quality hand crafted knife, hold it up to a good light source. You will see random light reflections, look closely you will see thin lines of colour changes. The thin lines is where the two steels have been fused.
 
1)Pro or home cook? Home Cook

2)What kind of knife do you want? I think a gyuto, but open to other suggestions.

3) What size knife do you want? I'm a female. So I think something smaller? Maybe 180mm or 210mm?

4)How much do you want to spend? Under $200

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction? I've only had experience with stainless. Honestly, this is the aspect that confuses me most. So I'm really open to any and all suggestions.

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle? Western

7)What are your main knife/knives now? Old and dull Wusthof set

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair? Fair

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Rocker and push/pull

10)Do you know how to sharpen? No, but very interested in learning.

As I mentioned, I'm a home cook who usually cooks 4-5 days a week. Often meals include chicken, steak, shrimp, sliced and diced veggies, chopped herbs, etc. So, I'm looking for authentic japanese knives that is "mid-range", easy to sharpen, fairly low maintenance, and multipurpose.

I have been reading and researching a lot about Japanese knives over the past week thinking that the more information I had, the easier it would be to make a decision, but boy was I wrong. It has only made my decision more difficult and very overwhelming! So I figured it was time to ask for recommendations from the experts.

I know my answers are a bit vague, but I answered the best I could given my lack of experience with quality knives. I'd be happy to answer any additional questions you might have for me.

Thanks in advance,

I'm no expert on knives or sharpening, but I'm a long time home cook and I have some thoughts on the subject. You say you have an old dull set of Wusthof knives right now. How did you like those knives when they were sharp? Is there a reason that you didn't have them sharpened? If you get a new knife regardless of price if you don't have a plan on keeping it sharp it won't be any better than what you have. Learning to sharpen takes time, but you could have one of your current knives sharpened so you can use it now and work on your knife skills and if you choose, try to learn the basics of sharpening on one or two of the other knives in your set.

More questions:
Why do you want a Japanese knife?
What do you expect from a new knife?
How big is your cutting board? What is made of?
How do you hold your knife?
What does sharp mean to you?
Why do you like a western handle?
Is there a retailer in your area you can look at knives?
Have you used many brands different knives?


Your desire for easy maintenance stainless is the way to go at this point.

Over the years my preferences have changed as well as my cooking style. Some of past favorites just don't see as much use, but I still like them all. Hope to have a conversation with you maybe I can be a little help.
 
Sabatier high carbon steel if you can find it. Ours are nearly 50 years old and still out perform Henkles *****.
 
My Chroma type 301 10 inch chef's knife was purchased in 2003. It still looks., and works as well as it did in 2003. It has a convex edge grind, and just fits my hand in a pinch grip. I use this knife daily. I've only had to sharpen it once. I run it across a good steel before, and after every use. It may not be a $700 knife, and the handle isn't for everyone, however, for me, and my pro-chef/cook son, it's far and away our favorite brand of knives. My son has every knife they make, and gaurds them closely, as others have used, abused, and broken his knives. Of course, no one will ever own up to using his knives. To me, it's just part of personal honor, and integrity to replace a tool with a new replacement if I break something someone has lent me. My wife was never allowed to use my Chroma. But that worked as she always complained that it was too big, and was like trying to cut with a sword.

Seeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North
 
Tools are a lifetime investment.
With all tools, there is no ultimate best, tools are designed for a particular application.
Examine your cooking style.
Look at the balance point on the knife, otherwise, long term it puts pressure on your wrist joints.
Look at the quality of the tool steel and the ease of sharpening.
Then look at price; purchase the best you can afford.

https://www.esquire.com/food-drink/food/g39376688/best-japanese-knives/

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/cooking-tools/best-kitchen-knives/g28541172/best-japanese-knives/
From the light reflection The Shun, Miyabi, Kuma knives are a combination of fused soft and hard steel.

https://prudentreviews.com/?s=Knives

A good range of knives and comparison.

Shun Knives:

https://prudentreviews.com/shun-knives-review/

All of Shun’s knives are handcrafted, following a process of over 100 steps. The company pairs ancient traditions with modern materials to craft knives that are a grade above the competition. History is a core value for Shun Cutlery, and it’s infused into each product it offers.

Damascus cladding is when metal alloys are layered and folded while hot before being shaped into the blade and ground from the spine to the edge. The number of layers varies, but most Shun knives have 34 layers per side, 68 total.
 
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