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Old 04-14-2011, 05:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by jaybett View Post
The part about the folding steel or doing it so well, makes a knife with good retention, in general isn't true.

The steel in Japanese knives is harder then those typically found in European knives. Harder means brittle. A hard knife, made out of steel or ceramic will chip. To compensate makers will sandwich or clad the hard steel, between soft steel. The edge can still chip, but the knife won't break, like a ceramic.

Depending on the properties knife makers value, will effect their choice of steel and how they work with it. Shun values a sharp knife that will hold its edge a long time.

Knives that have good wear resistance, in general are more difficult to sharpen. Additionally the cladding on a Shun is very soft and will easily scratch.


The Edge Pro is a nice system, if you have a number of knives to sharpen. If you only have the Shun, then sending it out, makes more sense. Just make sure whoever you send the knife to, is familiar with Japanese steel and Shuns.

Jay
It certainly scratches easily. Particularly their SG0409 'Elite' 6" utility knife.
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:36 PM   #22
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"Depending on the properties knife makers value, will effect their choice of steel and how they work with it. Shun values a sharp knife that will hold its edge a long time. "

That would be my criteria for any knife steel. There is the scratching issue on some of the exterior steels, but all in all, sharpness and edge retention are what knife steels are all about.
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:01 PM   #23
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That criticism does apply to most Euro style knives, that's true- and they should be avoided if you know what you're doing. Well, my normal recommendation it to get a Japanese knife, that's wafer thin with no bolster! But until you've seen that knife I don't thing you really "get" just how fat the handle is. All "traditional" Euro-style knives with a bolster are fatally flawed re sharpening the 1/4" in front of the bolster. But the Sanellis (unless the newer ones are different) it's almost impossible to the last 1/2" of the heel. We're talking almost 1" thick vs the 1/4" that you can't effectively sharpen on a traditional German boat anchor. Obviously you're better off letting the Germans build your car and the Japanese build your knives. But if you have to cut corners you can at least get the best of an inferior breed. If you're not willing to get serious than a Forschner Fibrox might be your best bet.

If you're a little bit more serious than most, but don't want to spend enough to get a Japanese knife, get a Sab. But be advised that many companies use the name...
Oh noes Rob and I butt heads agains.

Firstly the bolster.
The bolster provides longitudinal stability to the blade.
So the choice is between a blade that snaps easily and a blade that you can't sharpen the last 1/4 inch.
Like forging, the benefit of having a bolster have only really been diminished in the last 20 years with improved steel making processes. It doesn't make forging or bolsters redundant merely less important.

Secondly blade thinness.
European CS knives are as thin as most SS J-knives and much thinner than Japanese CS knives.
[aside: Now that I am exclusively using CS knives I am finding that I am sharpening far less frequently than when using SS knives. This is counter intuitive since CS knives are softer, the reason is that CS knives respond so well to honing that I need to put them on the stones less often].
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:47 PM   #24
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I can't even imagine how you'd bread a chef's knife back near the handle! I don't baton firewood with my knives, I just use 'em on food! Nothing I do puts that kind of stress on the blade, as as far as I'm concerned if you do use that much force you're asking for trouble. In almost every case where I've seen a knife break it was at the tip, and occasionally at the heel. Tips will break if the knife falls point first, and I've seen people break the heel using their knife as a can opener. In the latter case a nice bolster may have saved the heel, but since a knife isn't made to open cans I don't really consider that a benefit. A coworker I used to work with did snap the blade off my Messermeister tourne knife right at the handle a few year ago. Claims he was just peeling an onion and it snapped. Hmmm...

I've placed dial calipers on a lot of knife spines. Some of the very thinnest I've ever seen are the stamped blades of the Forschner Fibrox knives. But thickness of the spine doesn't really tell the true story; how well a knife cuts is more determined by the bevel angle and the thickness of the blade behind the edge. Although a truly thick spine can cause a knife to wedge, I've found cutting performance more affected by thinness of grind more than thinness of spine.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:52 AM   #25
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I supply and sharpen SG-2, VG-10 and ATS-34 blades for my wife's chopping (and chipping). Most of my favorite meat cutting knives are CS. For slashing bread dough and scoring pigskin I use a CPM-S30V blade.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:12 PM   #26
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Oh noes Rob and I butt heads agains.

Firstly the bolster.
The bolster provides longitudinal stability to the blade.
So the choice is between a blade that snaps easily and a blade that you can't sharpen the last 1/4 inch.

Blades can be strengthened and counter balanced without a bolster. Finger guards are not needed with a pinch grip.

Since a knife with a bolster cannot be fully sharpened, what is going to happen over time?

Like forging, the benefit of having a bolster have only really been diminished in the last 20 years with improved steel making processes. It doesn't make forging or bolsters redundant merely less important.

The steels that have been developed over the last 50 to 75 years has allowed makers to develop knives that take incredibly keen edges and hold that edge a long time.

To get the most out these steels, the makers need to know how to forge them. A large part of a maker's reputation is the ability to work with a particular steel.

While forging is more important then ever on high end knives. The bolster is being given up as a relic of the past.

Secondly blade thinness.
European CS knives are as thin as most SS J-knives and much thinner than Japanese CS knives.

Not all Japanese knives are thin. The ones intended for general purpose work, have more weight and size. They are still typically thinner then European style knives.

[aside: Now that I am exclusively using CS knives I am finding that I am sharpening far less frequently than when using SS knives. This is counter intuitive since CS knives are softer, the reason is that CS knives respond so well to honing that I need to put them on the stones less often].
Carbon steel is harder then stainless. One of the advantages of carbon is how easily it sharpens. Down side is that it reacts. Stainless steel is softer then carbon, that is why it needs to be sharpened more often.

The geometry of a knife, its profile, thickness, how it is ground from the spine to the edge, the type of bevel, determines how well, the knife will cut. Type of steel determines how long the edge will last.

Jay
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:33 PM   #27
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FWIW the gap between carbon and stainless is getting narrower all the time. And of course some newer steels blur the lines, combining some of the virtues of each.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:56 PM   #28
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FWIW the gap between carbon and stainless is getting narrower all the time. And of course some newer steels blur the lines, combining some of the virtues of each.
While ingredients are important, in this case the types of steel, in the end, I think it is secondary to the skills of the knife maker working with their chosen steel. I am aware that you are referring to semi-stainless steel, that is used in your Carbonext knife. I would find it hard to believe that it can get anywhere near as sharp as a white steel #1 Furiwara. Jay
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:42 AM   #29
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Among other steels. There used to be just carbon and mediocre stainless but that's far from the current state of things. I've never used the Fujiwara but from all accounts it's one of the better cheapo knives out there. Either I should pick one up or you should pick up some tool steels. Then we can get to the bottom of it.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:29 AM   #30
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Among other steels. There used to be just carbon and mediocre stainless but that's far from the current state of things. I've never used the Fujiwara but from all accounts it's one of the better cheapo knives out there. Either I should pick one up or you should pick up some tool steels. Then we can get to the bottom of it.
Since when is a $700.00, 270mm Gyuto, considered a cheapo knife?

Jay
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