Scotch
Head Chef
Nah, you don't' NEED it, you just LIKE it -- and believe me, as a knife collector, I fully understand.
But in the kitchen, I've come to believe that knives can be TOO sharp.
Wusthof Knifes
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone that enjoys cooking.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
But in the kitchen, I've come to believe that knives can be TOO sharp.
buzzard767
Sous Chef
Okay Charlie, you have me confused. You say you can get your Wusthofs razor sharp yet cannot sharpen a Shun. It's steel. How can you sharpen one and not the other?
I am not a professional sharpener. I am a home cook who sharpens as a hobby, and a knife collector. Where this forum is concerned, nothing more.
Buzz
buzzard767
Sous Chef
Wrong Scotch. If I didn't find the enjoyment in my knives that I do I probably wouldn't cook at all. This is a cooking site, and **** few here in the knife sub forum of DC know diddly about knives, the steels from which they are made, and sharpening. I suggest you go to a dedicated knife site with a cooking sub forum and keep your mind wide open. Here's the best one:
In the Kitchen (Topic list) - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB
This "In The Kitchen" sub forum is filled with a wonderful combination of pro chefs, home chefs, sharpening experts, professional sharpeners, and custom knife makers. Knife nuts all, and they don't speculate nor give generalized information like "dude, I think my Furies are just great and they stay sharp forever." blah blah blah
If you're really a knife collector you should know better, and that business about thinking kitchen knives can be too sharp is just plain garbage. Most times when I've seen statements like that, and I've seen plenty, are made by people who have never even seen or used a truly sharp knife.
Buzz
jpaulg
Senior Cook
I see the Japanese steel fanboys have weighed in, and I think you do need to hear the counter arguments.
Basically there are three main designs of Chef's knife, German French and Japanese. Just remember that I'm talking about the origin of the design, not where the knife is made and you can get Japanese style knives from Germany and German style knives from Brazil.
Without going into chapter and verse about ergonomics and metallurgy these designs have different functions.
Japanese knives are all about precision. They are made from high hardness steels and have thin blades.
German knives are all about practicality. They are easy to handle, have soft steel which is easy to maintain.
French knives are about volume. They are designed to make short work of big jobs.
Now all of these designs more or less do the same thing, but are optimised in different ways, so you can be very precise with a German knife or process large volumes with a Japanese knife. But you need to look at what you want your knife to do for you.
You may also decide that you want a mix of different knives for different functions. For example I have a French Chef's knife, a Japanese vegetable knife and a German boning knife and I deliberately sourced them as such.
fanboy is a rather deragatory word in my book
seems there's been alot of posts, "what are/who makes the best XYZ knife"
I really don't care what knife it is...if it doesnt feel good in YOUR hand you're not going to use it..period.
Second to that, some knives are pretty use specific or require a use methodology to keep them from being dammaged.
long story short..if you're going to invest in goods knives, go handle them
sure, a Ducati may be a killer fast motorcycle--but if my wrists go numb in 5 miles I'm not going to ride it....
a Harley mabe be like riding down the street on a Laz-y-boy, but if you can't hold it up at a stoplight, well...you get the picture
seems there's been alot of posts, "what are/who makes the best XYZ knife"
I really don't care what knife it is...if it doesnt feel good in YOUR hand you're not going to use it..period.
Second to that, some knives are pretty use specific or require a use methodology to keep them from being dammaged.
long story short..if you're going to invest in goods knives, go handle them
sure, a Ducati may be a killer fast motorcycle--but if my wrists go numb in 5 miles I'm not going to ride it....
a Harley mabe be like riding down the street on a Laz-y-boy, but if you can't hold it up at a stoplight, well...you get the picture
Scotch
Head Chef
Wow! That's certainly an unusual approach, sort of like saying if I didn't love my brushes, I wouldn't paint, or if I didn't like my camera, I wouldn't take photos!
In my view, knives are merely tools, the means to an end, which is good food. Cooking is not just a reason to play with one's knives.
GB
Chief Eating Officer
Maybe for some people it is.
buzzard767
Sous Chef
Perhaps I'm merely in an argumentative mood tonight but this fanboy has a few comments.
Eliminating geometry, steels, and the hardening thereof, although a huge topic in itself, is shelving information as to why various blades perform the way they do. These are subjects not to be ignored as they are the heart of knife performance.
Japanese knives are indeed all about precision, but only in their designated specific duties. There are many knives that are not thin at all as everything depends on intended use. You don't use an Usuba to process fish any more than you would use a Deba to slice vegetables.
German knives are all about terrible ax like edges that are filled with chromium so they don't rust when you toss them in the dishwasher. They are marketed to the lowest common denominator "could care less" user. It's just business and I fully understand it.
French knives: Volume? I don't get it. Are you saying that an 11" Sabatier makes shorter work than an 11' Messermeister? I have a small collection of around 20 WWII era Thiers-Issard Sabatiers up to 12" and I would never say they make shorter work of anything versus my 300mm Hiromoto High Carbon Gyuto.
Methinks you generalize way too much. Different knives for different folks, but if you want to get into specifics, let's use this forum and discuss it.
buzzard767
Sous Chef
Right on. I would not want to take a picture with an inferior camera. You got it Scotch, even if you didn't mean it that way.
Yes, knives are tools, and the best tools produce the best works in accomplished hands. No argument there. There is more to cooking than blindly following the recipe....
There is a great amount of pleasure using a tool, in this case a knife, that does its job better than others. You may not agree, but don't tell me that my "unusual approach" is wrong.
What sort of knives do you collect, and, more importantly, why?
Edit: you didn't answer my question re "too sharp". Please explain that to me.
Buzz
jpaulg
Senior Cook
OK I know I was generalising but I think that it isn't controversial to say that Japanese knives are precision instruments designed for specific tasks.
With german style knives, which includes quite a few non-German manufacturers as well, there is an emphasis on practicality and ergonomics. Yes they have steel that is generally geared to high chrome content, but that is a deliberate decision aimed at keeping the knives rust free and looking good. But for example you also have Goldhamster and Scanpan Damastahl knives made in the German pattern but using much better quality steel than one normally associates with German knives.
The ergonomics of handling come into it with the wide belly and more curved edge that German knives carry compared to Japanese or French knives. This makes using the rotary cutting technique easier (your wrist has to travel in smaller circles) and safer (its very hard to get the fingers of your guide hand under the edge). You see a lot of Wusthofs in commercial kitchens precisely for their ergonomic factors.
Sabatiers have much thicker blades than German or French knives. This creates a wedge effect when cutting, most noticable on root vegetables. With the smaller belly your wrist has to perform much larger circles than with a german knife to get the same elevation. This makes the downstroke cut of the Sabatier a much longer stroke with more lateral movement relative to vertical movement than with a German knife. With a French style knife you use more of the edge with your cuts.
You won't notice much of a difference between an 11" Sabatier and 300mm Hiromoto gyuto if you're processing 2 potatoes. You will if you process 200.
With german style knives, which includes quite a few non-German manufacturers as well, there is an emphasis on practicality and ergonomics. Yes they have steel that is generally geared to high chrome content, but that is a deliberate decision aimed at keeping the knives rust free and looking good. But for example you also have Goldhamster and Scanpan Damastahl knives made in the German pattern but using much better quality steel than one normally associates with German knives.
The ergonomics of handling come into it with the wide belly and more curved edge that German knives carry compared to Japanese or French knives. This makes using the rotary cutting technique easier (your wrist has to travel in smaller circles) and safer (its very hard to get the fingers of your guide hand under the edge). You see a lot of Wusthofs in commercial kitchens precisely for their ergonomic factors.
Sabatiers have much thicker blades than German or French knives. This creates a wedge effect when cutting, most noticable on root vegetables. With the smaller belly your wrist has to perform much larger circles than with a german knife to get the same elevation. This makes the downstroke cut of the Sabatier a much longer stroke with more lateral movement relative to vertical movement than with a German knife. With a French style knife you use more of the edge with your cuts.
You won't notice much of a difference between an 11" Sabatier and 300mm Hiromoto gyuto if you're processing 2 potatoes. You will if you process 200.
buzzard767
Sous Chef
I must admit that I have never chopped up more than a half dozen potatoes. I do know that the less wedging, the smoother and easier the cut - friction. I also don't know much about how the wrist comes into play. My wrists feel fine.
However, I would absolutely love to see what comments would be observed if you would copy and paste your above post here , for better or worse, to see what some pros have to say about it.
Scotch
Head Chef
But I'll bet I can take a better photo with an "inferior camera" such as my old Pentax Spotmatic 35mm, than you can with they latest Nikon or Canon digital DSL. The true art is in the photographer's eye, not the lens on his camera (e.g., Ansel Adams). As they say, it's not the gun, it's the gunner, and in my experience, the guy who's all hung up on his gun generally ain't much of a hunter.
As for "too sharp," I have at least one Japanese Santuko that was so sharp when I got it that it routine caught in the cutting board, damaging the surface of the board but not doing any better job of slicing carrots. It's dangerous when a knife catches like than and then slips, so I've taken it down a notch or two.
But if really sharp knives and slicing up stuff is what you like about cooking, more power to you -- just don't put down others who fail to see the need to buy such exotic toys to dice their onions.
I have 100s of knives in my collection, which is worth a great deal of money. I specialize in folding knives, but I have many others, including the 15" dagger of handmade Damascus steel below. I collect them because I like them, and I know a thing or two about sharpening them -- but that has little to do with cooking.
buzzard767
Sous Chef
Scotch, don't be so sensitive. Take all the pix you want and I hope you make a million like Adams did. This is a discussion so let's get into it. As to guns, you picked a poor analogy. I was born of a North Dakota hunting family and was making custom, SS barreled, nickel plated action all weather rifles before the major makers even knew there was a market for such appropriate tools. With proper glass bedding, and with custom handloads, they are far better than factory rifles, just like custom handmade Japanese knives.
It's spelled "Santoku". If your blade stuck in the board your technique was incorrect, pure and simple. You were probably twisting the blade on retraction, a common newbie problem. Practice makes perfect so keep on trying.
I never meant to "put down others". If I did, quote it and I'll edit and/or apologize for it.
How about a picture of your collection rather than some web site sales pic. I'd love to see them. And you said "and I know a thing or two about sharpening them", tell me, how do you do that?
As they say, it's not the gun, it's the gunner, and in my experience, the guy who's all hung up on his gun generally ain't much of a hunter.
wow, I didn't know we we're going to see insults in this thread
BTW...knives, making them is what I do for a living (thats why I'm "hung up" on them)
wow, I didn't know we we're going to see insults in this thread
BTW...knives, making them is what I do for a living (thats why I'm "hung up" on them
)
buzzard767
Sous Chef
Aren't you glad you asked? You've been hijacked. Yeah, your knives are okay, not great, just good. Use them and enjoy. You can make them very sharp but in doing so the edge will not last very long because of the soft steel from which they are made. It's just a fact of life but if your use is merely in a home kitchen they will last an adequate time before needing resharpening.
Cook well,
Buzz
jpaulg
Senior Cook
I must admit that I have never chopped up more than a half dozen potatoes. I do know that the less wedging, the smoother and easier the cut - friction. I also don't know much about how the wrist comes into play. My wrists feel fine.
If you're just hacking straight down then there is more friction, but if you're taking long even cuts then you do get the benefit of wedging without any significant loss of cutting efficiency.
Also the heavy robust blade does allow you to punish the Sabatier in ways you wouldn't dream of with a Japanese knife. I've used my trusty Sab as a cleaver, which is just something I just wouldn't consider doing to a Japanese knife
I also find that Japanese knives are far more "skittish" than Sabatiers.
GB
Chief Eating Officer
OK this back and forth has to stop now. This thread is about if Wustoff makes a good knife. Lets please stick to that. If you would like to debate the pro's and con's of Japanese vs German vs French, sharp vs not as sharp, or anything other than the OP's question then please start a new thread. Any subsequent posts about anything other than the OP's question will be removed.
Jeekinz
Washing Up
The Lamsons I have are very durable. I only use them on wood or plastic cutting boards. I use my 8" French style chef's knife everyday and only need to sharpen it on a stone once or twice a year. I've used it to open tin cans and coconuts and it still holds an edge. All of their knives have a well balanced feel to them. The only knife I have that I don't particularly like is my 6" utility knife. Not that it's bad quality, but it's too big to use like a paring knife and too small to use like a chef knife. I bought it for the wife anyway. I can do 99% of my work with the chef knife. Even using the tip like a paring knife for delicate work.
You can find some decent deals on Ebay if you don't want to pay msrp. You won't be dissapointed.
These are the forged LamonSharp "Silver" line.
DrThunder88
Senior Cook
I have one Wusthof, a cheap, stamped, bolsterless 5-inch chef's knife that came with a cutting board. It's become my mom's favorite knife. She uses it for almost everything in the kitchen, and it's still pretty sharp. I say "pretty sharp," because she abuses the heck out of it so often (dishwasher, cutting on plates, etc) that all I do is use a crock stick on it anymore. So, that's pretty much it in a nutshell: perfect for Mom.
Phil
Senior Cook
Boy, did you stumble on to it....
...betcha got more than you bargained for, huh? GB put the whammy on it but I think one can learn a lot from passionate discussion, even from the original subject. I have had the Wusthof knives for thirty years and for common use they are fine. I can shave my arm with them. However, they don't hold that edge that long. Which brings me to the question, directly after use I cleaned the knife, then went directly to the steel. It almost seems to have dulled the edge. Discussted, put it in the block and, to my surprise the next day, it is razor sharp. How'd that happen?
